Quest for TONE; weakest link

[dannymusic]

Lately I've been confused about all the money/time/effort spent on us guitarists chasing the elusive holy grail tone. I don't play clubs as much (more into theatre gigs), but when I did so last weekend. I realized that a Diesel, Matchless, Fender, line 6, digitech or whatever would ALL be JUST FINE. A $2000 amp and $1500 pedal board wouldn't be much different then a PODxt. The final stage is usually 1 mic into 1 speaker onto the mercy of the PA. SO MANY things can go SO wrong after the air comes out of the speaker.

MY POINT is: Here us knuckleheads know that obsessing on the axes is way more important.

I used my JP6 and AL directly into my GNX4 floorboard all night and the electric AND acoustic sounds (through the PA) we're phenominal. My rhythm player had a tube amp a couple pedals (spent 2x-3x what I had into my rig) and sounded like cardboard (to me).

And of course... the crowd didn't give a rip about "tone" at all and alcohol makes everything sound better

I chose to allocate my $$$$ on a precision musicman/men.

 

[whitestrat]

Regarding tone, while I do agree that in a club, most patrons would be more concerned with other things, there are some who will notice and appreciate a good sound. I mean that kind of sound that gets you square between the eyes when it counts. As long as you sound good, and don't break every glass in the club, you should be fine. I tend to find that tone is more a matter for the guitarist himself. The better you sound, the more encouraged you are to play better.

And to get that kind of tone, I think EQ and sensitivity to fellow bandmates is the key.

Other than that, I just pray the soundman doesn't kill the mix...

 

[DrKev]

Tone is for our own enjoyment and comfort but means very little at the end of the day. My 15 Watt Laney died last weekend and I played my Sunday gig with a very last minute borrowing of a Marshall Valvestate with an 8" speaker (mic'ed of course)! I thought it sounded terrible but I still played the crap of it and the audience never noticed the difference.

Notes, not tone, that's all that's important.

 

[dwells]

i think its more about discovering youre own tone and sound with all different types of guitars and amps
isnt that what the holy grail is?
creating something special with youre own talent and devices???

 

[dannymusic]

one of the "points" was that no matter what we use, the "sound" into the PA is what really is projected. All our efforts can be killed with:

1- Bad mic
2- Bad mic placment
3- Bad channel eq
4- Bad soundman
5- Bad gain structure
6- Bad PA period
7- you get the point...

 

[Tim O'Sullivan]

At the end of the day, tone is really about pleasing yourself. Unless you are getting a truly terrible sound, nobody in the audience will ever notice.

[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=E3V1bXaCFjs"]YouTube - Gurning Caesar[/ame]

I was playing into a Boss Overdrive/Distortion pedal into the PA in this clip. My amp died in the 2nd half. Nobody noticed!

 

[candid_x]

I get that even a D13 or Two Rock can sound like donkey doo through a PA if everything isn't done just right, but to say tone doesn't matter, only the notes do, is a bit like saying only a singer's words matter, and not his or her voice.

I can't get inspired unless I get the kind of tonal feedback that my soul needs to really play. So maybe in that sense, the stage mix matters more to me than what happens through the mains.

Another thing, I stop looking for crowd affirmation by the second set, when they're too wasted to notice if I'm good or bad. Then I just play for the band and myself.

 

[tonemeister]

I agree that on most gigs the audience may be oblivious to the nuances of amps vs. pods etc. That`s not to say that the same goes for our fellow musicians!

I have been to and played as guest at numerous local blues jams usually using my tried and true setup of either a 1x12 Rivera R55 or one of two Rivera TBR1 amps with Avatar 2x12 cabs along with various strats and have always gotten nice response about tone and playing from other players.

The last time I went to guest at the jam I took my recently acquired 2006 AL LE and also new (to me) Mesa Blue Angel 1x12 single channel amp.

I put an EB volume pedal, Z-Vex Box of Rock (best clean boost I have ever heard!) and Hermida Zendrive up front and just jammed away. The response I got was quite different this time. Almost ALL t6he regulars stormed up to the stage at break and swarmed the setup. they were checking out amp and guitar from inside out! A couple of hotshots also played on the rig after that and were really impressed with te sound.

the Blue Angel is probably the most soulful and toneful amps I have ever owned. It has a combination of 2 6V6 and 4 EL 84 power tubes which can be used independently or together. I replaced the stock 6V6s with a pair of 50s vintage Brimar 6V6Gs and put new JJ EL84s in it when I bought it. I am looking for another Blue Angel now as I really prefer to play in stereo in general.

I also played a gig Tuesday night at which my wife was present. For the first set I played my former # 1 guitar, a Hamer Mirage Koa with 3 singles (Fender Noiseless Hot) and the second set with my new AL. When asked, wifey said that the AL definitely shone through above the Hamer.

I guess what I`m trying to say is that to me it`s worth the extra effort to choose equipment wisely for each gig. Most may not notice, but there will be some that do hear the difference. The style of music makes a difference in what you choose also......showing up at a pure blues gig with a POD will get you frowned upon whereas showing up at a rock or metal gig with a 30 watt 1x12 will get you sneered at just as well! With that being said, I would like to say that, as you all well know, tone begins and ends with your fingers! Ciao fer now!

 

[DrKev]

I was playing into a Boss Overdrive/Distortion pedal into the PA in this clip. My amp died in the 2nd half. Nobody noticed!

Actually sounds pretty good in that clip, Tim!

 

[TNT]

one of the "points" was that no matter what we use, the "sound" into the PA is what really is projected. All our efforts can be killed with:

1- Bad mic
2- Bad mic placment
3- Bad channel eq
4- Bad soundman
5- Bad gain structure
6- Bad PA period
7- you get the point...

Yeah, we're all in the same boat!!!!

Tone is that "elusive butterfly"!!

And, is the frustration I experience consistently, because one teeny, tiny, micro link in the CHAIN that isn't what it should be, can screw up everything!!!

And, most of the time the audience can't understand "why" you're so frustrated, because to them, "it sounds great"!! Lol,lol,lol

However, you gotta have the "MM, tubes and the Celestions".

 

[koogie2k]

I am 50/50 on this. I play bass in my band and I have had many non-musicians tell me my sound was incredible. I think good sound or tone will catch someone's attention. But, I am very selective in our sound guy and the one I have used for many many shows knows us and really takes pride in his sound.

However, I agree with what you are saying as well. I think too many sound guys use the general rule "If it is extremely loud, it sounds great!" Negative...I prefer to play at lower volumes in clubs and let the PA boost the sound to the audience. I don't believe in people leaving a show with their ears bleeding.....even if it is the "cool" thing to do.

But, a board into the PA works and they work well. As long as the sound man has his act together.

 

[colinboy]

im trying to find a good sound for myself at the moment also.im looking at differnt guitar/amps and fx units to build my perfect rig!

 

[Sigmunds Couch]

I do alot of cover shows with an old Johnson modelling head. All the great tone monsters in one box. Tube purists scoff at it but for what I do, it can't be beat. A tone snob would be hard pressed to tell the difference in a crowded bar show. I'm seriously considering going laptop only. Amplitube or NI GuitarRig. Techology has come a long way. Not to metion breakdown is a breeze.

I also want to work over one of Line6's new Bogner mutants to see what that has to offer.

 

[Jonny Dubai]

I was playing some theater gigs and the sound man just loved all digital. Makes his work so easy, so I played the gig with a Korg Pandora!

J

 

[PugNinjas]

This is a great discussion. When I was in my old band our sound guy was one of my best friends and an audio junkie for quality gear and PA equipment. As soon as we started to sound like a legit band he pulled me asisde before a gig and told me, set your amp so that it's loud enough so you can just hear it, I will take care of the rest. The results were amazing.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a show where someone's rig was just way to loud compared to the rest of the band. Personally, I think it ends up ruining the experience for the rest of the band and more importantly, the audience.

You guys nailed it on the head, too many sounds guys do follow the Spinal Tap rule, where if it goes to eleven then it must be turned to eleven to sound great.

 

[Jimmyb]

I agree with Tim, I think a lot of it is about being happy with your own sound. If you're happy with it, you can be more relaxed with your playing and enjoy it more.

When I play Theatre stuff, a lot of the time I go straight into a Rocktron Chameleon and then direct to the PA board. I can get all of my monitoring through headphones and it really helps to balance the sound, as there's no fighting against the naturla volume of my amp.

 

[dannymusic]

I was playing some theater gigs and the sound man just loved all digital. Makes his work so easy, so I played the gig with a Korg Pandora!

J

Interesting to bring that up. I did a run of JesusChristSuperstar in 2000 with a small tube amp. It was hard to get the volumes where I wanted and still get both a nice round clean tone AND a ripppin' kill tone. My last couple shows (including Rocky HOrror PS), I used my Digitech floorboard (GNX4; which handles my piezo routing too) into a powered wedge (EV) as I did in the club last Friday. Seems that having that much more control going direct left me a happier guy; by far. "PUSHING AIR" wasn't the only way to get a great blend/tone. And theatre is ALL about getting the right tones and moods while still hearing the singers. Everyone wants to hear the singers.

 

[Astrofreq]

A $2000 amp and $1500 pedal board wouldn't be much different then a PODxt.

What in the world are they putting in your water supply up north?

By your same argument, you could say "A $2000 Music Man guitar wouldn't be much different than a $300 Squire." Is that true too?

 

[fbecir]

I don't believe in people leaving a show with their ears bleeding.....even if it is the "cool" thing to do.

+100000

If you play to loud, the bartender cannot hear the orders of the customers thus you can be sure that it is the last time you play in this bar !

 

[TNT]

What in the world are they putting in your water supply up north?

By your same argument, you could say "A $2000 Music Man guitar wouldn't be much different than a $300 Squire." Is that true too?

Rad,

I think the "Line 6" people DO understand what you're saying. At least that's what "R. Bogner" says.