Question of Overdrive

[koogie2k]

Ok my bros/sisters....I am in a debate and I know many of you here will know the answer.

Let's say I have a JSX amp. I want to utilize the amps distortion. Now, during solo moments, I want to boost the amp. I say...use a Overdrive pedal such as a OD-3. I was told that could not happen as you would be distorting a distortion channel. My theory is...overdrive is to help "overdrive" the guitar signal where as a distortion is just that...strictly distortion. I would not put a Metal Zone pedal on a distortion channel as I believe it would just be a train wreck.

I was told you have to run all effects including the overdrive on the clean channel and turn off the distortion when you want a clean signal. To me, why would you buy a 3 channel amp if you can't utilize the amps own distortion channels.

Am I missing something here? Reason, I had a Line 6 Vetta and this was a moot point.

This has become an interesting debate between myself and another individual. If I am wrong...well....no need to go there.

 

[fbecir]

You can use an overdrive with the distortion channel. But, you will not have a big boost if the gain of the distortion channel is high. Indeed, the tube will absorb the increase of level (in fact you cannot go higher than 11 ...).
With my Marshall (DSL401), if the gain is at 5, with a good overdrive like a Jacques Tube Blower, you can boost the sound. But if the gain is at 10, well there is a very small change (in fact you increase the noise) so it is useless.
My 2 cents. I hope it helps !

 

[colinboy]

i dont know mate.i posted a thread a few months ago too asking advice on how to get a goo d overdrive/distortion sound.most people gave the same opinion,you cant really beat a good tube amp like amesa boogie or marshall etc.if the amps distortion channels arent enough for you then put a good pre-amp in front of the amp like the ibanez tube screamer,some of thr pedals from xotic effects are supposed to be fantastic as these type of pedals dont mess with the tone of the guitar amp except to just boost the gain and and add more EQ options.

i havent tried one yet but im looking in to afew.i bought the digitech GNX4 recently and even though it only tried to emulate these classic sounds it gives me agood idea of how they sound via my amp.

 

[tommyindelaware]

pedals deal w/ the preamp section of an amp.......not the output section of an amp.
to change the overall volume of your amp......it has to be done at the output stage ......not the preamp stage . the preamp stage shapes your tone. the output stage determines your volume.

it's hard to explain simply......but i can give you a general idea of what yer dealing with.
lets say you have a typical 12'' guitar speaker hooked up to a 1 watt amp. it would be ........lets say.......80 db. of volume. (louder than u would think)
in order to achieve 160 db of volume.....it would take ALOT more watts than 2.

this is why say...... a 100 watt marshall amp is not twice as loud as a 50 watt marshall amp.
hope this helps.
i bet beej can be more technical.....

 

[Spudmurphy]

Koogs I may be barking up the wrong tree but you might want to try this:-
If you want to initially run yer guitar into an overdriven channel then boost that I think you need something that will give you a decibel boost rather than add even more distortion?
if so then try a Seymour Pickup booster - it'll give you a huge kick adding a 25 db boost - that may also naturally overdrive the amp a bit more too. If not a SD pedal try an xotic RC or BB booster. Norrin Radd may be able to "chip in" more here.

Hey Koogs a while back you suffered fire damage and lost a lot of your kit- any more to report on that?
Spud

Edit
Seems to tie in nicely with what Tommy said.

 

[www.lamusic.ca]

Easy dude! Grab a Radial PB-1, and put it in the effects loop. Set the desired level of boost, and you're set!

 

[Dreamrycher]

Well, I run through a JSX and have tested this exact theory. Using a distortion box on the overdrive and crunch channels is just to much, however, a slight bit of overdrive from the tube screamer is definitely added punch for lead tones and chunk.

Now, with that said, I most often run strictly through the clean channel. The JSX clean channel is outstanding for my use. Crystal clean and when I punch the overdrive and distortion pedals, I get a great overdriven chuck sound from it. Just as good as the two Hi Gain channels. That's just me but I do find the JSX a very versatile amp, especially the clean channel.

 

[philiprst]

You need try try both distortion and (clean) boost; a lot of pedals allow you to do either. A boost pedal doesn't add distortion to the signal passing through it but it does allow you to overdrive the preamp tubes. Used this way, the distortion is generated by the amp not the pedal.The problem with this configuration on the clean channel is that you get a big volume increase when you switch on the boost. This may be what you want. If you want the same volume level with and without distortion then the way to go is use a bypass distortion pedal.

You can also keep the boost on all the time and control the overdrive by the volume knob on your guitar. You can also boost the distortion channels on your amp to increase the saturation.

 

[beej]

It's an issue with the preamp and it's all about headroom.

When you're playing clean, your amp can increase its overall volume by boosting the signal of its preamp. Basically, turning up the gain will make your overall signal louder.

But once you hit a certain point (turning up the gain knob) you're saturating the input section. There's no further ability for the amp to increase the signal of the preamp stage. Rather, the signal "clips" and the sine-wave like signal becomes more like a square wave. You've reached the maximum amplification of the input section. Where it starts clipping is "crunch". Where it's fully clipped you've got "distortion".

Once you're distorting the preamp section, boosting your signal with a pedal, booster, etc. won't do anything for your volume. To do this you need to boost the signal to your output section.

If you have an FX loop, you can put a booster in the loop (RC Booster, for example). It will goose the output section that still has headroom (unless the master is on 10, in which case you have the same problem as before). But generally this is the way to boost your volume for solos. Or take a volume pedal and put it in the loop. Play with it down a bit, then kick it up for solos. (Same principle.)

Ok, so what happens if you use the pedal in front of the distorted amp anyway and hear something? What you're hearing isn't a volume change, it's a frequency change. The pedal might boost the mids, etc. so you get more of that in the signal. Might actually help cut through for solos, but won't be any louder.

Last thing you can do if you don't have a loop is use an EQ in front. Boost certain frequencies for solos. Or, reduce the EQ for your rhythm sounds and then turn it off for solos.

 

[Ang3lus]

hmm
doesn't an eq compress the range/dynamics of your playing ?
i got the MXR 10-band EQ but i was told by someone that has had lots of experince that it is actually limiting my playing and i sound better without, but putting it on actually gives a nicer/fuller tone.

anyway, joining this discussion, what do you think can give an awesome lead tone ?
and do you think you can use one soudn for both rhythm/lead ?

 

[fogman]

It's an issue with the preamp and it's all about headroom.

When you're playing clean, your amp can increase its overall volume by boosting the signal of its preamp. Basically, turning up the gain will make your overall signal louder.

But once you hit a certain point (turning up the gain knob) you're saturating the input section. There's no further ability for the amp to increase the signal of the preamp stage. Rather, the signal "clips" and the sine-wave like signal becomes more like a square wave. You've reached the maximum amplification of the input section. Where it starts clipping is "crunch". Where it's fully clipped you've got "distortion".

Once you're distorting the preamp section, boosting your signal with a pedal, booster, etc. won't do anything for your volume. To do this you need to boost the signal to your output section.

If you have an FX loop, you can put a booster in the loop (RC Booster, for example). It will goose the output section that still has headroom (unless the master is on 10, in which case you have the same problem as before). But generally this is the way to boost your volume for solos. Or take a volume pedal and put it in the loop. Play with it down a bit, then kick it up for solos. (Same principle.)

Ok, so what happens if you use the pedal in front of the distorted amp anyway and hear something? What you're hearing isn't a volume change, it's a frequency change. The pedal might boost the mids, etc. so you get more of that in the signal. Might actually help cut through for solos, but won't be any louder.

Last thing you can do if you don't have a loop is use an EQ in front. Boost certain frequencies for solos. Or, reduce the EQ for your rhythm sounds and then turn it off for solos.

Dr. Jay!

It's always a pleasure reading your technical post to these types of questions.
I must read slow then re-read them again to take it all in!
Good info. Thanks!

 

[TNT]

Koog,

I might as well throw in my 2 cents. However, need MORE clarification.


1. "......utilize the amps distortion...." What do you mean exactly? Do you want to keep the amp's distortion in tact, and just enhance the distortion??


2. ".....boost the amp. . ." You mean volume wise (i.e., power tubes)??


3. You want to see if you can implement a pedal to accomplish your desire on both, or one or the other??

 

[koogie2k]

You guys are the best...love the great bits of information.

TNT - here is what I am saying for more clarification and I hope this helps you techies out there. Keep in mind, this is the set up I am talking about.

JSX with a G-major effects unit.

Channel 1 - strictly clean with some effects to thicken it up like Chorus

Channel 2 - running mostly rhythym with the amps distortion itself and some effects. However, I would like to use this channel with some solos as well

Channel 3- different rhythym/tone setting than channel 2 using the amps distortion as well as solos with the same tone.

I think what I am after is Channel 2 and 3 having a different sound and being able to utilize those channels for solos without switching to another channel.

Does that make sense? I think with an OD pedal, it would add more gain (but have it set with a slight gain boost) and not totally kill the tone, yet increase the volume (because of the gain) slightly to differentiate the solo from the rhythym.

Or would a simply EB Volume pedal do what I am looking for? (Notice the shameless plug...lol)

 

[Slingy]

I use my EB volume pedal in the loop. It's much better then using the volume on my guitar as in it doesn't change the tone it just makes it louder/softer. I used to put my tubescreamer there with the drive at zero and the gain set to boost, also works great but colors the tone.

I bought mine a long time ago, but don't they have one now that accepts hotter signals? Pre-amp send and returns are line level, not high impedence like the guitar input.

 

[TNT]

Koog,

Now I see what you mean, yes it makes sense!! Great venture by the way, should get some really "cool" sounds!!

But, I don't think the "volume" increase in ch. 2 & 3, is going to capture what you want. Do you??

Now it makes sense inserting some kind of device or pedal etc. . . in the mix.

But, to tell you the truth, I personally do not like to insert anything in my loop, with reference to distortion and overdrive ( I want to keep that PURE all tube!!) I have a rare 93' Marshall JCM 900 model 2100, and the only thing in my loop is my Eventide Harmonizer H3000 D/SE.

That JSX is an awesome amp, I think the pedals you mentioned might do it: maybe a Tube Screamer, Boss Overdrive, etc. . . the G-Major should have applications too!!

Let us know what you come up with.

 

[Jonny Dubai]

I do something similar, but it all depends how you set up your pedal (to me anyway). If you are playing on the distorted chanel and you kick in a tube screamer set on high it will get mushy

so

What i do is set the gain to about 9-10 then the volume of the pedal to about 3 oclock. I get a bit of a boost and extra sustain.

Great thread,

J

 

[Plaschkes]

I actually do just that, only with my 2 channel Rect-O-Verb.

Since I have only one channel of distortion, I want to utilize it for rhythym and lead playing, so what I do, is have the gain quite low, and have two overdrives in front. a TS9 for rhythym playing, and soon to be, undecided one for lead, to boost the gain and yet the appropriate frequencies for each sound with having just one EQ set in the amp.

However, my amp has a Solo function that boosts the volume at the poweramp stage, it can go up to like +15dB or somthing, so for solos I also use that. If your amp doesn't have a similar function (I don't know the JSX all to well) then a clean boost in the loop will work the same way in boosting your signal, unless your channel volume is at 10, in which case it's allready maxed and it will only increase your poweramp saturation.

 

[beej]

Hey Koogs-

So you have 1 clean channel and 2 channels you want to use for solos. Why not set ch 2 for rhythm and ch3 for solos and set it to be louder than the other channels? (As I write this I'm hearing the Nigel Tufnel "one louder" bit in my head.) Easiest solution. Though I can see why you'd want different sounding channels on 2 & 3.

I think with an OD pedal, it would add more gain (but have it set with a slight gain boost) and not totally kill the tone, yet increase the volume (because of the gain) slightly to differentiate the solo from the rhythym.

Yeah, again it really depends how much gain you're running on those two channels. If you're close to maxed out and the preamp tubes on ch2 and ch3 are providing all the amplification they're capable of, then increasing the signal into the amplifier with a pedal won't have any effect on your overall volume. The sound will just more compressed and noisier. If they still have some room to go then you will get a volume boost.

Or would a simply EB Volume pedal do what I am looking for?

This is your best bet The FX loop sits between the preamp and output stages. So you can control the amount of juice going into the output tubes. Normally you'll back off the volume a little bit, and then for solos just open 'er up all the way.

Btw, you'll want the 25k version for this.

Also, might as well throw the G-Major in the loop as well. Then you can use all the cool sounds on every channel.

 

[TNT]

Beej,

What amp you giggin' with these days?? What "troops" in the "loop"??

 

[SteveB]

I'm with Beej on both his answers.

Normally I'd suggest an EQ pedal as a boost. You can even tweak the EQ'ing a bit that way to optimize it for your 'solo' sound.

With a 3-channel amp though.. (and I have the Peavy Triple X head with 3 channels also).. I use the 'crunch' channel for distorted rhythm playing and the 'solo' channel for leads. I don't use nearly as much gain on the rhythm as I do on the lead, and each channel has it's own volume plus the whole amp has a master volume.. so you can make the lead channel louder than the others.