Question of the Week For BP

[captcolour]

My first bass was a $50 POS from a pawn shop back in'75 I think. I really loved the looks of a Rick, but had no coin. When I finally had enough money I bought a brand new Univox Rick. Why? Because I really wanted a Rick but couldn't afford it. (Can you say OLP?) I was proud of my first new bass and that it looked like a Rick. When I got my first real job a few years later, bought a real Rick. (Can you say EBMM?) Brand loyalty can happen very early on and EBMM needs to capitalize on that just as much as the other guys.

Why am I on the EBMM forum then? Eventually tone becomes more important than looks/influences/etc. The Rick is long gone and my main player is a Bongo. EBMM will also capture business from those of us later in life, but they need to play at both price points.

 

[Big Poppa]

capt my man!

 

[jaylegroove]

I agree with Capt. My only "suggestion" was : try to go a bit higher on quality with the next generation of EBMM licenced instruments.

And yes, doing official licensing is probably the best way to thwart the cheap counterfeits that pop out here and there every week.

 

[oddjob]

Well, even when I was a teenager I knew the difference between an American Jazz Bass and a Mexican one, an Epiphone Les Paul and a Gibson, etc. I did my research. And I didn't have the internet back then. I think teens are pretty savy today. They can check out the web, look at Musician's Friend, and do a lot of research. Unless they totally spontaneously decide to grab an instrument and rock out, then I suspect consumers, including teens, would understand that an off-brand MM copy's quality cannot be attributed to MM. .

WHile the internet has helped with research you obviously don't know most teens because, and this is from experience, IF they research something it is usually very superficial and they take the first resourse they can find and leave it at that. Yes, you always have the exception to that rule (in your case you are a huge exception) but this isn't the market for a starter bass and represents 2 or 3 kids out of maybe a 100.

I also don't have a lot of sympathy for the "I can't afford it" argument. The truth is: you can't afford it right now and you want it now! I couldn't afford any of my initial equipment. As a teen, I first rented a bass and I worked, put money in the bank in a disciplined fashion, and bought the instrument I wanted (an entry-level Ibanez) when I could afford it. And you know what, it was very satisfying to know that I had accomplished that. I did the same thing every time I wanted a nicer instrument through high school and college. Today, I actually don't think it's that hard to save up $1400, even as a teen or college student. You just have to be willing to make trade-offs and determine "how bad you want it."

You don't have to have sympathy for the can't afford it crowd BUT you do have to realize that they are there. Again, you are the exception to the teenage rule. In 12-13 years of working with kids (mostly middle class but some others on both ends) the general rule for money is "in the pocket, spent the same day." I appreciate and actually admire what you did but it isn't the norm here in America (why do you think there is a credit crunch?). We are a society of instant credit and instant gratification which is a bad combo. I would love to see more of my students save for bigger and better things but it doesn't happen that often because they have very little respect for money.

It isn't that your views are wrong, I actually agree with some of what you are saying, but that is a very atypical view esp for the market range we are talking about. Regardless of what you say one of the largest markets is in the under 400 group and someone is going to make money there just the shear volume of it. It can be a cheap knockoff that could turn someone off or it could be a monitored,licenced product like what the OLP was supposed to be.

 

[AnthonyD]

Well said Ritch!

The man knows of what he speaks - he spends his days surrounded by teenage masses!




No, really, it's a good thing!

 

[fly]

Sure, but we were implying the making of a "cheap SUB", not a "real one". I mean, Mexico instead of Colorado, or South Korea instead of Chicago, etc. It obviously wouldn't be as good as the real SUB, but it would take a better step towards what a real EBMM is.

Just IMO, of course.

what if BP opened shop here in Canada for the SUB line...........hell,i'd be the first guy in line for a job......

sorry.....just a thought.

 

[fly]

Are most of the woods used at Ernieball american? I assume that the majority of the costs are labor related... Wood isnt that expensive actually.

lottsa wood here in BC...........could open an SUB shop here..........


just sayin'

 

[Big Poppa]

yeah that canadian dollar is a real bonus right now

 

[oli@bass]

It's funny, I've been thinking this over and over in my head the last couple of days... funny that the brand image of EBMM does mean so much to me (that should tell something about the image as well).

What I started to like from all the ideas I was tossing around in my head was:

1.) A new line of instruments by EB, proably Korean made, but strictly according to the EB quality standards. Pretty much what the SUB was, but not Music Man SUB, instead SUB as the name of the line. Ernie Ball SUB. They offer a StingRay, a Sterling, a Luke, a Silhouette. Basswood body, maple/rosewood black finished neck, same basic electronics, same pickups, same hardware bridge as the Music Man counterparts. Only a very limited number of colours to choose from (as low as 2 or 3, just black would be even fine for me), either in the finish that was available for the SUBs or something like the finishes on the Highway One line (that could allow for a cool vintage burst).
Pricing: About half of the Music Man counterparts, but internationally stable.

2.) A product line of (unofficially?) licensed copies, woods and finishes whatever the producing company fancies. The whole line is in no regard connected to Ernie Ball / SUB / Music Man, the quality is good for what it costs but less consistent. Produced at the lowest possible cost. The price range is very low (< USD 200), and these instruments are not available worldwide but in selected countries where general income does not even allow for the SUB line to succeed.

3.) A new line of quality instruments for beginners called Music Teen. The general EBMM vibe is present in these instruments but the are generally new designs which balance fanciness with production costs. Standard Music Man components and technologies are used where possible, but not essentially (e.g. a lower cost bridge and different lightweight tuning machines can be used). Basses are generally only passive, guitars have limited pickup options.

Now that I have this thought out of my head, maybe I can start concentrate on my job again

 

[Big Poppa]

good job oli.......,

 

[philthygeezer]

Not entirely... I heard he does appearances at parties for a small fee

Bwahahahahah!

 

[philthygeezer]

I would find it disappointing no matter what the economic justification on the part of the manufacturer (there actually was a significant uproar when Porsche came out with the more "affordable" Boxter model for these very reasons).

If BMW reaches down and sells the 1 series for the same coin as a Miata, then who am I to argue?

If a high quality firm can make high quality items with less features for less money, count me in. I'd rather have a cut-rate Acura than a high end Kia.

 

[philthygeezer]

It's funny, I've been thinking this over and over in my head the last couple of days... funny that the brand image of EBMM does mean so much to me (that should tell something about the image as well).

What I started to like from all the ideas I was tossing around in my head was:

1.) A new line of instruments by EB, proably Korean made, but strictly according to the EB quality standards. Pretty much what the SUB was, but not Music Man SUB, instead SUB as the name of the line. Ernie Ball SUB. They offer a StingRay, a Sterling, a Luke, a Silhouette. Basswood body, maple/rosewood black finished neck, same basic electronics, same pickups, same hardware bridge as the Music Man counterparts. Only a very limited number of colours to choose from (as low as 2 or 3, just black would be even fine for me), either in the finish that was available for the SUBs or something like the finishes on the Highway One line (that could allow for a cool vintage burst).
Pricing: About half of the Music Man counterparts, but internationally stable.

2.) A product line of (unofficially?) licensed copies, woods and finishes whatever the producing company fancies. The whole line is in no regard connected to Ernie Ball / SUB / Music Man, the quality is good for what it costs but less consistent. Produced at the lowest possible cost. The price range is very low (< USD 200), and these instruments are not available worldwide but in selected countries where general income does not even allow for the SUB line to succeed.

3.) A new line of quality instruments for beginners called Music Teen. The general EBMM vibe is present in these instruments but the are generally new designs which balance fanciness with production costs. Standard Music Man components and technologies are used where possible, but not essentially (e.g. a lower cost bridge and different lightweight tuning machines can be used). Basses are generally only passive, guitars have limited pickup options.

Now that I have this thought out of my head, maybe I can start concentrate on my job again

Sweet ideas. I want to add to 1) if it's ok:

Looking at some of the Korean and Mexican sub-brands that have gained following, they fall right around the $400-$600 mark, and people I know save that little bit extra to get the extra features like bound necks and inlays and bursts. The trick would be the conversion of manufacturing echelons from adding features to adding higher quality. Make guitars with the same features as the low end models but impress that extra time and effort be spent on making perfect fit and finish. Painted bodies in maybe four colours, dot inlays, but high quality hardware and setup not cheap tin and lousy tuners. I think $400 is a reasonable price at about the same price as a gaming console or a decent entry-level bicycle.

 

[oli@bass]

good job oli.......,

Thanks, BP, it would be tremendous if only some tiny part of it could trigger a good idea that finally makes it into production.

3.) A new line of quality instruments for beginners called Music Teen. The general EBMM vibe is present in these instruments but the are generally new designs which balance fanciness with production costs. Standard Music Man components and technologies are used where possible, but not essentially (e.g. a lower cost bridge and different lightweight tuning machines can be used). Basses are generally only passive, guitars have limited pickup options.

I'd like to add this finish options to the Music Teen line:

• only available in one or two (high quality) standard colours
  
• one of the colours is very hip, fashionable, and changed every year or season (gets the teen vibe and makes for collectibles)
  
• a very fun and low cost version could be made available as a "DIY"-finish option: The body is properly sanded and base coat is applied, but the idea is that it can be finished by spraying it with standard car colours (That could become a favorite by art schools)
  

 

[Old_Guy]

Thanks, BP, it would be tremendous if only some tiny part of it could trigger a good idea that finally makes it into production.



I'd like to add this finish options to the Music Teen line:

• only available in one or two (high quality) standard colours
  
• one of the colours is very hip, fashionable, and changed every year or season (gets the teen vibe and makes for collectibles)
  
• a very fun and low cost version could be made available as a "DIY"-finish option: The body is properly sanded and base coat is applied, but the idea is that it can be finished by spraying it with standard car colours (That could become a favorite by art schools)
  

Think you're right on. But please, don't call it "Teen." I got it, nobody likes "WorkingMan" or "StarvingArtist," but as a guy with 3 teens...(and a 25 year old)...calling anything aimed at teens "Teen" is death! They're "pre-adults."
BP - have a contest, free EMBB ball cap to the winning product line namer.

 

[Road Pop]

This has been a great read for me. I also love this place: no arguments. A lot of people have made great points. One point for me.... Sometimes I've had to buy used to get what I wanted over the years. I didn't have SUBS when I was growing up. I do remember Squires (Squiers-sic).

I've had a boatload (row-boat) of basses over the years. I HAVE associated lower cost intruments to their higher cost bretheren. A lot of it comes down to being able to actually PLAY an instument that is more expensive. Smaller towns don't give you that benefit. Media does. I've noticed for awhile that Sterling doesn't advertise his basses in the mags. He doesn't have to. The people playing them does it for him. Free ads!

Now with the internet, so-called ads are available to everyone. It's also brought out the good and bad of companies. How many variations of Stingrays are there? Sterlings? and SR5's (I won't go the Bongo route).... Not NONE besides the routes for pups and all the killer colors. How many different jazz basses are there out there liscenced by $ender? Frets? Scale lengths? country of origin? Pups? Signature? I guess EBMM is doing it right.

I could go on and on. And that's one model. They sell them, though. If not they wouldn't make them. If Sterling and Co. can get in the market, more power to what we love. I read where someone popular here was gifted a SUB. Kinda makes me wanna play one. My son's learning guitar right now. I'm glad a company is out there that looks out for the people and not just the bottom line.

I myself have never played a Sub or an Olp of any kind. I Have played other price pointed wares. Get the neck true and the frets leveled and it's all good. I am a snob! But I'll play anything if it plays good. Or I'll try and make it sound good.

It's supposed to be about the music and the joy it brings us and others?

 

[Lucas G]

i have never been one to shy away from a cheap bass. if it plays good and sounds good, i'll give it a shot. if it's cheap enough, i'll view getting it to play and sound how i want it to as a challenge.

i come from a small town in ohio. i am not too old (almost 33) and i have been playing bass for ten or so years, give or take. in all that time, it has only been somewhat recently- say, the last few years or so with the spread of guitar center that i have even SEEN an EBMM bass for sale in a store, and it is only more recently that i have even been able to consider purchasing one.

i knew they were out there, i had seen pictures of folks playing them in magazines and on TV, but i never got to actually touch one until somewhat recently. and when i finally did get to see any, they were hung up pretty high on the wall. not being the type of dude who will bother a guitar store employee to get a ladder and go through the hassle of getting something down off the wall so i could play it knowing that i couldn't afford it and he'd eventually just have to put it back, they stayed under my radar.

i was familiar with OLP stuff, i knew a few kids who had them, and i knew what they were- i.e., not the real thing, though i still had not seen one in a store.

okay, getting to the point:
a few months ago, i was at my local GC, they had some sort of sale going on, they were blowing out a few OLP's for $99. i figured, hey, what the hell, i'll give one a shot for a hundred bucks. tried one that was hanging on the wall, in typical GC fashion, it was dry as can be- the wood had shrunk so badly that the frets were like razorblades on either side of the fretboard. still, it had a certain charm to it. the sales guy said he had one in the back, in a box, never opened. i had him go get it, i tried it out, it was fantastic.

so i took it home. it had a few minor issues, the output jack lasted less then a week before i had to put another one in, no big deal, they are cheap. strap screws were pretty stripped from the factory, still minor. as i mentioned, i have no problems accepting and fixing the issues with a cheap bass.

and i LOVED it. it felt great! it sounded seriously okay for what i paid for it. played it at rehearsal, it sounded good, cut through the mix beautifully. so i figured if the licensed version is this good, the real ones must be incredible. so, i started to actively seek them out.

the GC in my town has a VERY limited bass selection. no markbass, not much of anything the bigger city guitar stores have. so i had to go to cleveland and columbus to try out a variety of EBMM stuff. played a few sterlings, played a few stingrays, played a bongo. fell in love. turned out my local GC HAD a bongo as well as a few other EBMM basses, they were just so poorly displayed that i never noticed them. the bongo had been there for two years! never saw it. and i'm in there at least once a week, just hanging out.

absolutely HAD TO HAVE THE REAL DEAL. so i bought a bongo, and haven't really played any of my other 7 basses since. the olp now sits on a stand in the living room, it is the bass i play when i am sitting on the couch watching TV.

i was a fender guy until i played an OLP, and then VERY shortly after, bought a real live EBMM.

sorry for being so long-winded, but i figured it was a good place to tell this story.

 

[Big Poppa]

Lucas thanks so much for the perspective and the support!

 

[RocketRalf]

Wow I want an OLP bass now j/k, but seriously a korean made (or similar quality) one should be a serious contender in whatever price range it falls on.

 

[joshbrake]

BP, I don't know if this has been asked or not, so forgive me.. but have you ever thought about putting out an electric upright of any sort? I've seen some electric bass/guitar makers release their take of an electric upright.. just curious is all.