- Thread starter Lance Romance
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Jimmyb
Well-known member
Different people look for different things with aesthetics. What is great for one person won't be so for another.
How can you quantify what 'too much black dye' is? How much becomes too much? What do you base it on, your own experience of doing it, or just your opinion?
I can never, ever, understand why someone would want to come onto a company owned forum and criticise the goods that the company makes. If you have an opinion on the subject, that's great, but I think it's rude to criticise the hosts, when they give you a free forum to use.
You don't have to love everything that EBMM produces, there are models that I'm not completely sold on, but I don't feel the need to post saying such.
Chris G
Well-known member
I've not tried a BFR or seen one in person but I would have thought that the BFRs would sound and play amongst the best in the shop.
BP and the gang produce some beautiful guitars but it seems that sometimes people get too hung up on colour and finishes and forget what should matter first - the sound and the playability. I bought both my Y2Ds based on that first and finish second.
To say "This top sucks" and "This guitar sucks" are entirely different.
BP and the gang produce some beautiful guitars but it seems that sometimes people get too hung up on colour and finishes and forget what should matter first - the sound and the playability. I bought both my Y2Ds based on that first and finish second.
To say "This top sucks" and "This guitar sucks" are entirely different.
darren
Well-known member
Sorry, BP... perhaps the way i used "quality" in the first post was not the right way of articulating what i was trying to say, and i can appreciate how that may have touched a nerve.
I was not attacking the grade of excellence of the finishes or the guitars themselves. (In fact, i don't think i was "attacking" anything at all... but more on this later.) Every EBMM guitar i've seen has had some of the best depth of colour and glass-smooth clearcoat i even imagined was possible on a guitar – or anything else, for that matter... you guys could teach all the major car manufacturers a thing or two about finishing.
What i was trying to say was that the characteristic of translucency and depth that i expected to see was not there. And this expectation is based not only on high-dollar boutique or "private stock" instruments i've seen, but on some of the stunning figured maple tops i've seen on Axis and Y2D models in the past, just so we're comparing apples to apples.
It is my opinion that the BFR finishes i have seen do not meet my expectations set by your own previous efforts in terms of how they complement and enhance the depth and dimension of the figured maple tops.
I may not have first-hand experience in finishing, but i've been studying the art and science (and business) of guitar building for over 20 years, and have certainly read quite a bit on the subject. I've also read (and seen) many first-hand, in-depth accounts of the finishing process from professional and amateur luthiers who document their build processes in detail on various building forums.
So my observations about "what appeared to be too much black dye in the grain and too dark of a tinted clearcoat" are not statements i'm pulling out of my ass. I believe i was stating an informed opinion based on my accumulated knowledge and understanding of the finishing process, not stating fact.
I didn't just write these posts in a knee-jerk reactionary way. I put a lot of thought and careful consideration into what i wrote, in an attempt to be more constructive and informative than merely saying, "that top sucks." I posted my observations and opinions so they might contribute to intelligent discussion on the subject and help make the product better.
To those of you who question my motives or motivation, i would just like to say the following: If a company is not prepared to hear customer feedback on their products – both positive and negative – then i would suggest that they have no business running a public, open forum for their customers (and potential customers) in the first place. As long as the discussion is constructive and respectful, which i feel all of my comments have been thus far, then i see nothing wrong with offering my opinions, even if they may not agree with most of the others here.
I was not attacking the grade of excellence of the finishes or the guitars themselves. (In fact, i don't think i was "attacking" anything at all... but more on this later.) Every EBMM guitar i've seen has had some of the best depth of colour and glass-smooth clearcoat i even imagined was possible on a guitar – or anything else, for that matter... you guys could teach all the major car manufacturers a thing or two about finishing.
What i was trying to say was that the characteristic of translucency and depth that i expected to see was not there. And this expectation is based not only on high-dollar boutique or "private stock" instruments i've seen, but on some of the stunning figured maple tops i've seen on Axis and Y2D models in the past, just so we're comparing apples to apples.
It is my opinion that the BFR finishes i have seen do not meet my expectations set by your own previous efforts in terms of how they complement and enhance the depth and dimension of the figured maple tops.
I may not have first-hand experience in finishing, but i've been studying the art and science (and business) of guitar building for over 20 years, and have certainly read quite a bit on the subject. I've also read (and seen) many first-hand, in-depth accounts of the finishing process from professional and amateur luthiers who document their build processes in detail on various building forums.
So my observations about "what appeared to be too much black dye in the grain and too dark of a tinted clearcoat" are not statements i'm pulling out of my ass. I believe i was stating an informed opinion based on my accumulated knowledge and understanding of the finishing process, not stating fact.
I didn't just write these posts in a knee-jerk reactionary way. I put a lot of thought and careful consideration into what i wrote, in an attempt to be more constructive and informative than merely saying, "that top sucks." I posted my observations and opinions so they might contribute to intelligent discussion on the subject and help make the product better.
To those of you who question my motives or motivation, i would just like to say the following: If a company is not prepared to hear customer feedback on their products – both positive and negative – then i would suggest that they have no business running a public, open forum for their customers (and potential customers) in the first place. As long as the discussion is constructive and respectful, which i feel all of my comments have been thus far, then i see nothing wrong with offering my opinions, even if they may not agree with most of the others here.
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tommyindelaware
Well-known member
from what i been seeing on scott's photo thread.....the bfr's look nothing short of magnificient !!!!!!!!
Chris G
Well-known member
Darren
I take your point. You may know more about this than me but as I understand it the finishing process is influenced by the piece of wood used and every piece of wood is different so the finishing is bound to differ. I know wood is porous so is it possible for a piece of wood to be more porous than another and thus absorb more of the colour?
My Y2Ds (one quilt, one flame) differ from every other Y2D I have seen. I like that. The quilt one is superb, the flame one doesn't have the same depth but the colour is beautiful.
As it happens I have no real interest in the BFRs - I'm not that interested in a Luke and if I was buying a JP6 (which I might) I'd save some cash and get Radiance Red or Mystic Dream.
I take your point. You may know more about this than me but as I understand it the finishing process is influenced by the piece of wood used and every piece of wood is different so the finishing is bound to differ. I know wood is porous so is it possible for a piece of wood to be more porous than another and thus absorb more of the colour?
My Y2Ds (one quilt, one flame) differ from every other Y2D I have seen. I like that. The quilt one is superb, the flame one doesn't have the same depth but the colour is beautiful.
As it happens I have no real interest in the BFRs - I'm not that interested in a Luke and if I was buying a JP6 (which I might) I'd save some cash and get Radiance Red or Mystic Dream.
Big Poppa
Well-known member
OPinion I have no problem with. Stating as fact that our quelity is not up to par I get to disagree with .
To say that I have no business operating a public forum if I cant take criticism works both ways...if you can post a very strong opinion and judgement I should be able to respond. If you want to post without getting feedback then there are may other manufacturers forums that are there for fluff.
We take the time to Photogreaph EVERY BFR......If you dont like them , I hope that there sonething we make that you do. If you think that im stupid enough to think that everybody loves everything we offer...i got some land to sell you.
To say that I have no business operating a public forum if I cant take criticism works both ways...if you can post a very strong opinion and judgement I should be able to respond. If you want to post without getting feedback then there are may other manufacturers forums that are there for fluff.
We take the time to Photogreaph EVERY BFR......If you dont like them , I hope that there sonething we make that you do. If you think that im stupid enough to think that everybody loves everything we offer...i got some land to sell you.
leftyguitarblue
Well-known member
Jimmyb
Well-known member
Stating your opinion once is fine, but you have two consecutive posts criticising the quality of the finishes. Then, when someone calls you on it, you again post and again state that you're dissapointed because they don't meet your expectations.
One of the things I always try to bear in mind, is that these forums don't just act as a place where we can all get together and talk about the guitars that we own and love, they also act as an information resource where potential purchasers can research information before purchasing their guitars. By posting about guitars that you have seen in a shop, you not only potentially deter the purchaser from visiting that shop, you also deter the purchaser from looking at that model.
I just think it's a bit rude. Sorry, but in my mind it's the same as standing in the shop and shouting your opinion.
One of the things I always try to bear in mind, is that these forums don't just act as a place where we can all get together and talk about the guitars that we own and love, they also act as an information resource where potential purchasers can research information before purchasing their guitars. By posting about guitars that you have seen in a shop, you not only potentially deter the purchaser from visiting that shop, you also deter the purchaser from looking at that model.
I just think it's a bit rude. Sorry, but in my mind it's the same as standing in the shop and shouting your opinion.
darren
Well-known member
My comment about the amount of dye and density of the tinted clear came from observations of other instruments that used tinted clearcoats with similarly dense results. Allow me to explain what i know about the process, just so people don't think i'm full of "hogwash".
For the figuring in the maple to really shine, light has to reflect off the cellular structure in the wood.
The "dye and sand back" approach has been used for years to enhance the figure in exotic woods. Leaving more black in the grain definitely enhances the visible pattern of the figuring, sometimes at the expense of that "3D" effect, because the black dye absorbs light. You get more pronounced figure, but less depth and "sparkle". It's a fine balance to try and get right.
Tinted clear coats cut the amount of [light] getting through the finish to the wood, and back through the finish to the viewer's eye. Tinted clearcoats can be used very effectively to produce rich and radiant colour (it's how candy-apple finishes are done), but too much colour in the clear can have the end result of cutting contrast in the finish, because the brightest light reaching the eye has been filtered on its way to hitting the wood, then filtered again on its way out. Some luthiers avoid the use of tinted clears altogether, preferring to accomplish all of their colour effects using light coats of dye, thus allowing more light to reflect off the wood's cellular structure, preserving more of the "3D" effect.
So, based on my knowledge and my observations of the colour density and contrast in the BFR figured tops i've seen, it seems that's what may be happening on the instruments i've directly observed. Filtering the light with a tinted clearcoat and reducing the reflectivity of the wood underneath with a bit too much dye can have the end result that i observed in the instruments i've seen.
And to BP: Yes, as a matter of fact, you make products that i like very much. I don't even hesitate to tell people that my JP7 is the finest, most playable, best-sounding guitar i have ever owned. And as you can see, i can be a picky guy.
As i said, i was hoping to contribute to intelligent discussions on the subject, and i welcome rebuttal and questioning of my opinions and observations. But in your responses, you haven't actually addressed any of my observations or concerns at all... all you've done is question my credentials and call my opinons and observations "hogwash".
For the figuring in the maple to really shine, light has to reflect off the cellular structure in the wood.
The "dye and sand back" approach has been used for years to enhance the figure in exotic woods. Leaving more black in the grain definitely enhances the visible pattern of the figuring, sometimes at the expense of that "3D" effect, because the black dye absorbs light. You get more pronounced figure, but less depth and "sparkle". It's a fine balance to try and get right.
Tinted clear coats cut the amount of [light] getting through the finish to the wood, and back through the finish to the viewer's eye. Tinted clearcoats can be used very effectively to produce rich and radiant colour (it's how candy-apple finishes are done), but too much colour in the clear can have the end result of cutting contrast in the finish, because the brightest light reaching the eye has been filtered on its way to hitting the wood, then filtered again on its way out. Some luthiers avoid the use of tinted clears altogether, preferring to accomplish all of their colour effects using light coats of dye, thus allowing more light to reflect off the wood's cellular structure, preserving more of the "3D" effect.
So, based on my knowledge and my observations of the colour density and contrast in the BFR figured tops i've seen, it seems that's what may be happening on the instruments i've directly observed. Filtering the light with a tinted clearcoat and reducing the reflectivity of the wood underneath with a bit too much dye can have the end result that i observed in the instruments i've seen.
And to BP: Yes, as a matter of fact, you make products that i like very much. I don't even hesitate to tell people that my JP7 is the finest, most playable, best-sounding guitar i have ever owned. And as you can see, i can be a picky guy.
As i said, i was hoping to contribute to intelligent discussions on the subject, and i welcome rebuttal and questioning of my opinions and observations. But in your responses, you haven't actually addressed any of my observations or concerns at all... all you've done is question my credentials and call my opinons and observations "hogwash".
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Chris G
Well-known member
Does anyone know which page of the BFR thread these ones are on so we can all have a look?
Big Poppa
Well-known member
if you dont like the bfrs. one post on someone elses thread is enough.
You want me to tell you that you are right when we like what we are making and the public does too...(Im getting wrist cramps signing those damn cards!)
I cannot respond to your personal preferences. I can ask you to not misuse the quality word.
Case closed.
You want me to tell you that you are right when we like what we are making and the public does too...(Im getting wrist cramps signing those damn cards!)
I cannot respond to your personal preferences. I can ask you to not misuse the quality word.
Case closed.
darren
Well-known member
I posted two consective times (several days apart, mind you) because i had the rare opportunity to see two BFRs with different woods and different colours in exactly the same spot in the same store. I just wanted people to know that my first post was not just a fluke, one-off incident. And again, the word "quality" was used out of context. My expectation was that the BFRs would be the "best of the best", and in my opinion that expectation was not met. Your expectations may be different from mine, and that's fine. But that shouldn't prevent me from saying (or writing) what i did.
I agree with you completely about the forum serving as a valuable resource from which current (and future) customers can learn about the products. It should also serve as an example of how the company responds to legitimate concerns of current (and future) customers. Calling an attempt at informed and intelligent discussion "hogwash" isn't rude?
And when i'm shopping for a high-ticket item, i make no bones about pointing out flaws in materials, fit and finish or build quality. When i walk out of the store (or showroom) i want the retailer (or manufacturer) to have a very clear understanding of how and why their product did not meet my expectations, so they can apply that feedback to make the product better and maybe win the sale the next time around.
If a company chooses not to act or respond to customer feedback in a constructive and pro-active way, that's their perogative. But to completely dismiss feedback outright?
Big Poppa
Well-known member
isnt wiki fun!
Darren, you mentioned two methods based on your reasearch (that I bet is after your original threads)
"So, based on my knowledge and my observations of the colour density and contrast in the BFR figured tops i've seen, it seems that's what may be happening on the instruments i've directly observed. Filtering the light with a tinted clearcoat and reducing the reflectivity of the wood underneath with a bit too much dye can have the end result that i observed in the instruments i've seen."
WHich ones do we make with a black stain? Are all tinted clearcoat?
Im asking because of the above 'wiki' thoughts.....
You are now an expert..How do you think we do it?
Darren, you mentioned two methods based on your reasearch (that I bet is after your original threads)
"So, based on my knowledge and my observations of the colour density and contrast in the BFR figured tops i've seen, it seems that's what may be happening on the instruments i've directly observed. Filtering the light with a tinted clearcoat and reducing the reflectivity of the wood underneath with a bit too much dye can have the end result that i observed in the instruments i've seen."
WHich ones do we make with a black stain? Are all tinted clearcoat?
Im asking because of the above 'wiki' thoughts.....
You are now an expert..How do you think we do it?
Jimmyb
Well-known member
Darren, I'm going to agree to disagree.
You have your opinion and I respect that, we're all different.
You have your opinion and I respect that, we're all different.
Big Poppa
Well-known member
I said "stating fact with zero basis is hogwash." How is that wrong?
darren
Well-known member
In no way have i made personal attacks or disparaging remarks about anyone in this discussion. Yet you're now making the discussion personal, and are taking a very defensive stance by trying to undermine my own knowledge and credibility, suggesting that i copied-and-pasted from Wikipedia.
FYI, everything i posted came straight out of my noggin. As i said, i've been a "student" of guitar bulding for 20+ years, soaking up as much knowledge and experience from others as i can. Please don't presume that i went out and did some quick online research to find information to back up my position. That's a very cynical and belittling attitude. But since you don't know me from a hole in the ground, i guess i owe you a bit of background so you can understand where i'm coming from.
You asked for a bio, so i'll give you a quick summary of who i am and how i got here.
Guitars are a passion of mine, and i've been learning about this stuff for years. Were it not for committing to an alternate career path at a very early age, i might have become a luthier. (And if my circumstances allow, it's what i hope to do on a part-time basis, or even full-time when i "retire".) Right now, it's only lack of time and shop space that are keeping me from pursuing building instruments.
Going back a little further... i was identified as an academically "gifted" student when i was very young, and was guided away from "the trades" and on a path to enter University to study architecture, industrial design or graphic design.
At age 17, my curiosity and passion about guitars led me to take a course at The Twelfth Fret here in Toronto, where i built my first guitar under the guidance of Grant MacNeill and Gordon Barry. That was a defining moment in my life, and still stands almost 20 years later as one of the most rewarding and fulfilling things i've done in my life. Had i known this earlier, i would have taken greater advantage of the wood shop and metal shop in my high school, instead of grinding away in pointless drafting classes.
Fast forward to today: I now work as a graphic designer and creative director. I am driven by a passion for design in all things. I learned in art school how to critique in a constructive way, and how to take criticism without seeing it as a personal attack. These lessons still serve me well today. My work gets criticized every day by my colleagues, my staff and most importantly, my clients. It's part of what i do, and it makes my work better. If they're paying the bills, they get a say.
Can i please everyone every time? No. But i can go back to the drawing board and try to make things better.
And i still obsess over guitars and guitar technology. And i love the smell of fresh-cut lumber.
Based on what i saw, the finishes appear to be a combination of stain and tinted clear (except for perhaps the black ones). But if they're not, i'm fully prepared to stand corrected... but obviously, i don't expect you to divulge trade secrets.
kevin
Ernie Ball Customer Service
http://www.ernieball.com/forums/mus...icial-ball-family-reserve-picture-thread.html
I'm very proud of whats coming out of the factory....
I'm very proud of whats coming out of the factory....
rmh925
Well-known member
Very informative thread.
Dargin
Ernie Ball Customer Service
I haven't read all the posts in this thread...it's like a dang book!
I believe the critiques I've read are unfair. Let me offer a different perspective...When we were picking finishes for BFR's the goal was to create something rich or elegant. We decided to go with the black stain and not sand it off as much to make the red darker and more "Ruby" than our standard trans red (like what we do on the Axis). Keep in mind there are other design elements that we went with, and that so far all BFR's have bursted to black. I guess we could have gone with the normal trans red, but how is that any fun?
I believe the critiques I've read are unfair. Let me offer a different perspective...When we were picking finishes for BFR's the goal was to create something rich or elegant. We decided to go with the black stain and not sand it off as much to make the red darker and more "Ruby" than our standard trans red (like what we do on the Axis). Keep in mind there are other design elements that we went with, and that so far all BFR's have bursted to black. I guess we could have gone with the normal trans red, but how is that any fun?
