Serial numbers on open site. A problem?

[BassTractor]

This may be an uninformed question, but as the Serial Numbers threads are only growing in size:

Don't these threads help the counterfeiters?
Or is that not a (serious) problem?


best,
bert

 

[oli@bass]

Don't these threads help the counterfeiters?

How?

 

[BassTractor]

How?

Use brain

 

[epitaph04]

I think EBMM has been doing this serial number thing for a long time now. If something was wrong with it, they would have pulled it by now.

 

[tbonesullivan]

Gibson serial number formulas have been out there for years, as well as countless serial numbers. It hasn't helped counterfeiters one bit. Even with serial numbers that appear legit, they still make so many mistakes in other areas that it doesn't even matter. if they took the time and effort to do an extremely accurate counterfeit, they wouldn't be able to sell them at $300 a pop new or whatever they do.

 

[Aussie Mark]

Use brain

Use manners.

 

[bovinehost]

Use manners.

When MARK tells you this, it's EPIC.

There may come a day when pre-EB basses command the kind of insane prices that pre-CBS Fenders command. And it might be worth it then to gen up some fake serials to attach to the fake pre-EB basses.

But there will always be people like us who are hip to that BS.

I would say that so far, we haven't seen any problems at all with peeps posting serials.

I stand by to be corrected if I am wrong.

 

[Spudmurphy]

Well it's not just the 300 per pop merchants, it's the guys who build forgeries and pass them off as real.

There was a huge scam exposed in the UK a few years back re Les Paul guitars. Believe me, the detail went to by the forgers was ridiculous. Even the pick up winding wire was the same (under the microscope). Believe me some "so called experts" were suckered. Some lesser known details (which I won't go into here) were "on the button". It's scary and it really scared me to the extent that unless an old guitar that I wished to purchase had good provenance, no way would I buy it.

I thought, and correct me if I'm wrong that the purpose of the s/n sticky was a) to enable owners to verify age and colour of their guitar and b) to enable owners to record their s/n in another location to aid with recovery should said guitar get stolen.
I think the question raised by the OP is a good one.

Talking of provenance, - here's a good one - I have an old 30's American acoustic guitar along with a picture of it being held by the original owner on his 18 th Birthday (In 1938) - now that's a good bit of provenance?

 

[BassTractor]

Use manners.

I agree very much with that, and if you decide to take the time to check my other posts, you may see that I tend to write polite and/or friendly posts.

However, I must admit that the poster I answered became the innocent victim of my general irritation about these fora, where lots of sycophants and lots of self-appointed watchdogs-on-behalf-of-EBMM make this a far less enjoyable site than it could have been.
What an enormous difference with BassChat!

This irritation also incorporates the many, many ultra-short posts where the receiver must guess about the intentions of the author. Many of those posts - judged in complete context - are clearly being used as domination tools.


That said, I know nothing whatsoever about the poster of the one word. I therefore apologise to him and to the forum, and promise to try and not repeat that behaviour in the future.


best,
bert

 

[BassTractor]

FWIW, I just bought a DDII Bongo with a serial number that Jacob said belongs to a StingRay.
That gave me thoughts...

Spudmurphy is spot on. We're not talking 300 bucks copies in large series here, but individual basses - especially those that pertain to be NOS Lim.Eds. and the like.
The chance of meeting a counterfeited rare MM must grow these days.


My question, BTW, was a question and not a position with a stronghold.


best,
bert

 

[Gravesend Black]

If someone heading to buy a used EBMM I guess it is good to have the opportunity to check out the specs by SN.

 

[tbonesullivan]

Well it's not just the 300 per pop merchants, it's the guys who build forgeries and pass them off as real.

There was a huge scam exposed in the UK a few years back re Les Paul guitars. Believe me, the detail went to by the forgers was ridiculous. Even the pick up winding wire was the same (under the microscope). Believe me some "so called experts" were suckered. Some lesser known details (which I won't go into here) were "on the button". It's scary and it really scared me to the extent that unless an old guitar that I wished to purchase had good provenance, no way would I buy it.

Les Pauls are the most sought after vintage electric guitars. PERIOD. When even a 1960 Les Paul Burst in great shape can command $150,000, that definitely makes it worth the while of the counterfeiters to go the distance. However given the level of scrutiny involved on such an instrument, the amount of time and materials taken to make it would mean you're talking about an instrument that would otherwise be thousands of dollars new. There of course is also voluminous amounts of literature on the early les pauls, meaning if someone does their homework, they can do it.

However EBMM basses at present do not command that kind of premium. There is, for one thing, no need to go to the "good old days" to get an excellent MusicMan bass, as they still make them just as good, if not better, than they used to.

 

[Rod Trussbroken]

I see no probs with a serial number, DOB and a short description.

 

[BassTractor]

If someone heading to buy a used EBMM I guess it is good to have the opportunity to check out the specs by SN.

Yes indeed, this is very important, and highly appreciated by me.
However, old posts are not deleted, and the thread gets longer and longer.

So I thought that, if one does see a potential problem, that one could maybe keep only the last few pages.
Wouldn't remove the perceived problem, but would hinder at least some hobby counterfeiters.


best,
bert

 

[bovinehost]

Well, my aim is not to dominate anyone, to be sure - just to try and keep this crazy ship between the channel markers when possible.

It strikes me that - so far - this is a solution in search of a problem.

By the time the pre-EB Stingrays begin to fetch vintage Les Paul prices, I imagine I'll be quite dead.

 

[drTStingray]

I think you're probably right regarding comparativeinstrument values, Jack, but Bass Tractor did say that he had a problem re the serial on a Bongo which had come up as a Stingray.

As Bongos have F numbers and recent Stingrays have E numbers it would seem difficult for the serials to get mixed. I have to say I look at the serial thread occassionally if only to lust after some of the stuff that appears and I noticed a PDN 2012 Bongo came up as a 'not in database' also. Perhaps it's just a mix up - I couldn't see someone trying or being able to fake a PDN Bongo (or a DD2 for that matter) with ease.

 

[BassTractor]

Thanks for the input, guys. I then take it that the question is answered: not a problem yet.

Lord Bongo, FWIW, I wasn't thinking of specific persons, and certainly not of you.


best,
bert

 

[Aussie Mark]

old posts are not deleted, and the thread gets longer and longer.

However, the serial number information is also transferred to a website maintained by one of our very own moderators. It's a fabulous historical resource and reference site, and I think the benefits far outweigh the risk that a counterfeiter is going to twig to the fact that the most valuable Stingrays have serial numbers that begin with "B00".

You can already buy brand new Fender 4 hole neck plates on eBay, stamped with any serial number you like, and as far as I know there is no online publicly available list of vintage Fender serial numbers that is contributing to this, so I fail to see that the serial number thread or Gav's website will result in a rash of EBMM forgeries. Well, there are already poor forgeries in the market place, so having a real serial number on a crappy forgery won't make the crappy forgeries any more saleable.

 

[five7]

I would be more scared of buying one that has had the serial number removed.

 

[oli@bass]

How?

Use brain

Use manners.

Hilarious!!!

@BassTractor: Apology accepted. And allow me to add a side note: As a software engineer I tend to use my brain quite a lot. Even on bass fora.

Regarding the availability of serial numbers: The number scheme used by EBMM is quite well known, and could also easily looked up checking the details in some online stores. Therefore, I think it's easy to make neck plates with generated serial numbers that look as if they were legit.

As long as EBMM (or any instrument maker) does not encrypt instrument specific information into the serial number (e.g. order details, date of build) and thus ensure a serial number to match only one specific instrument and to attach the serial number more securely to the instrument, I don't see how making select serials publicly available can help forgery EXCEPT if someone is using the pics and serial number and details of a real instrument in a fraudulent sale add (which can be acheived in many different ways as well).

IMO, it's even much more risky to use serial numbers that can be looked up than others. I always google serials of basses I'm interested in buying, just to check if they come up as stolen or something else.