SBMM
Well-known member
Holy thread revival! This is such a fantastic read.
- Thread starter Rod Trussbroken
- Start date
lpdeluxe
Well-known member
This is interesting. My connection to the Fender saga is peripheral: the closest I got when I was younger was getting my BA from Cal-State Fullerton! But in the intervening years I have owned a MusicMan HD-130 Reverb head with a 2x12 sealed cabinet which I used for pedal steel and later, with a different speaker cabinet, in our band's rehearsal space for a bass amp, I own an Ernie Ball MM StingRay 5, and a friend owned a pre-EB SR4. This last was a beautiful natural ash/maple fingerboard instrument that did not age well: it was one of the straight truss rod basses (my friend broke the truss rod trying to straighten the neck) and the electronics failed.
The amp was great, if very heavy (144 lb for the stack); I was much younger then, obviously. Previous remarks about the 12AX7 were noted: I could dial in a little bit of sweet distortion by cranking up the gain (I also played an LP Deluxe through it).
There is a single book on MusicMan, written by a guy who had been an accessories marketing type, and who joined the outfit late in its history. His book, while otherwise superficial, spends a bit of space on the truss rod problem, including reproducing a letter from MM's Japan distributor featuring a photograph of a MM neck that had been sliced down the center, clearly showing the straight truss rod. The author also notes that instruments were shipped from CLF Research with rusty hardware and cracked finishes and that there was bad blood between the principals with MusicMan sending faulty instruments back to CFL and then receiving them back with no work having been done on them. Naturally, the writer is a Tom Walker loyalist, and Fender/White/Fullerton were the other side in the battle.
I, along with many others, would love to have a more complete history.
Leo was a remarkable designer (I also own several Precisions, including a replica of the original '51 single-coil and I gigged extensively with a G&L Tribute L2000). I have to think that when EB took over production of the instruments, Leo's diamonds in the rough got the attention and quality control they deserved. My '99 SR5 looks and plays like new.
The amp was great, if very heavy (144 lb for the stack); I was much younger then, obviously. Previous remarks about the 12AX7 were noted: I could dial in a little bit of sweet distortion by cranking up the gain (I also played an LP Deluxe through it).
There is a single book on MusicMan, written by a guy who had been an accessories marketing type, and who joined the outfit late in its history. His book, while otherwise superficial, spends a bit of space on the truss rod problem, including reproducing a letter from MM's Japan distributor featuring a photograph of a MM neck that had been sliced down the center, clearly showing the straight truss rod. The author also notes that instruments were shipped from CLF Research with rusty hardware and cracked finishes and that there was bad blood between the principals with MusicMan sending faulty instruments back to CFL and then receiving them back with no work having been done on them. Naturally, the writer is a Tom Walker loyalist, and Fender/White/Fullerton were the other side in the battle.
I, along with many others, would love to have a more complete history.
Leo was a remarkable designer (I also own several Precisions, including a replica of the original '51 single-coil and I gigged extensively with a G&L Tribute L2000). I have to think that when EB took over production of the instruments, Leo's diamonds in the rough got the attention and quality control they deserved. My '99 SR5 looks and plays like new.
I would love to find a copy of that book! Let me know the authors name!
I have proof, in the form of invoices, work orders, and logs that shows the cracking finishes, dead pickups, instruments coming back multiple times,, etc..is absolutely true! By the end of 1977, fixing returned instruments was a daily thing. There are entries with notes like "5th time back". "Repairs" were simply swapping defective parts with new. If a finish was cracked, it got a new body. There are entries for repairs where one bass got a new body, neck, pickup and electronics. It does not specify how much hardware was recycled other than the neckplate, but does it even matter at that point?
Also interesting in all that is a written note where Fullerton says that Tom Walker is requesting a workbench be sent over to the sales office. Attached is a materials request for replacement necks to be sent to the sales office as well as strings. More follow later. The neck thing appears to have got so bad, the sales office was replacing some of them rather than send them back to CLF Research!
The impression I got from Grover was Tom Walker and Forrest White were pretty much strictly on the sales side over in Anaheim, CLF Research was Leo and George, but like back at Fender, Leo was more interested in R&D. George pretty much ran the shop. In the written materials I have from CLF Research all instructions, notes and most all production information is in Fullerton's writing. So with all that in mind, it appears the issues these had in those days was likely on Fullerton's shoulders. Forrest suspected Fullerton was sabotaging the line with the straight rods. It may not be far from the truth. I think things like instruments coming back multiple times was due to the fact that employees earned no bonuses on repairs. Repairs ate up valuable time they could use to build new ones and earn their bonus. So they likely didn't put too much time into them so they could move on to the next new build.
George was slightly off on this one. He himself participated in daily production logs during the Music Man years. At the end of the week, all the logs generated during the week were stapled together and filed. Sales also had a sort of log that was an accounting of each instrument they purchased from CLF Research listing the serial numbers of each instrument they were paying for. CLF Research maintained carbon copies of every one of these sales invoices. Some of these records still exist, but I am not sure if all of them still exist. It is possible some are tucked away at G&L in Leo's old file cabinets. The stuff that managed to get out, who knows how that happened.
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Rod Trussbroken
Moderator
Big Poppa
Well-known member
Its interesting to read this as I was there.....both as a beta tester....but as a confidante of Tommy Walker.
Tommy could have sued someone at CLF and made a ton. There were 2,500 necks with straight truss rods by his estimation. Conveniently around the introduction of G and L which was done behind Tommy and Music Man's back.
Grover only made Music Man for a very short time but did a great job. I think he would tell you that Tommy Walker was a straight shooter and class act.
THere is really no benefit in airing these guys who are all dead's dirty laundry...except it happened and there are some legends whose egos could not handle some of the instruments that they insisted were great and the public didn't agree. I argued with Leo so many times about the stingray and sabre guitars being off point. He was very very stubborn
Tommy could have sued someone at CLF and made a ton. There were 2,500 necks with straight truss rods by his estimation. Conveniently around the introduction of G and L which was done behind Tommy and Music Man's back.
Grover only made Music Man for a very short time but did a great job. I think he would tell you that Tommy Walker was a straight shooter and class act.
THere is really no benefit in airing these guys who are all dead's dirty laundry...except it happened and there are some legends whose egos could not handle some of the instruments that they insisted were great and the public didn't agree. I argued with Leo so many times about the stingray and sabre guitars being off point. He was very very stubborn
sanderhermans
Well-known member
If i may ask, what was it that you didnt like about the stingray guitars? Just curious what you think abouth them. Is it the ellectronics ore the construction that wasnt good for you? I actually quite like mine. Not that its the best guitar ever but it is pretty powerfull and versatile imo....
lpdeluxe
Well-known member
BrockLee, I apologize for not responding sooner...I visit this forum once in a while, being the owner of only a single MM bass! Anyway, here is the title and author:
Music Man: 1978 to 1982 (And Then Some!): The Other Side of the Story (Reference)Mar 1, 2007
by Frank W.M. Green
It's considerably less rigorous than other books available on other brands, and the author was not there for the long ride, but there are still a lot of useful information and insights in it.
Music Man: 1978 to 1982 (And Then Some!): The Other Side of the Story (Reference)Mar 1, 2007
by Frank W.M. Green
It's considerably less rigorous than other books available on other brands, and the author was not there for the long ride, but there are still a lot of useful information and insights in it.
drTStingray
Well-known member
I've bought this book, which has some interesting stuff in it. Thanks for the pointer guys.
drTStingray
Well-known member
I'm sure BP might answer you himself, but the usual complaint levelled at them concerns the excessive amounts of treble available/in the sound. Presumably, like the basses, a facet of Leo Fender's hearing. Whereas the treble was welcomed on the basses (their bass response and mid range wowing players also), it wasn't on the guitars. You have a rare guitar there - sounds like you're enjoying it. If you haven't already seen it, there's a televised concert of E Clapton in the 70s where the rythmn player is using a Stingray guitar, Carl Radle a Stingray bass and Clapton has a wall of Musicman amps.
MrMusashi
Well-known member
one notice about dirty laundry..
for those who has been there and know the full story it might seem like unneccesary information but for those of us who had no idea it can be an important piece of information.
i am of course implying that people use source criticism and dont buy everything they read on the internet.
for me it was information i appreciated someone shared with me
i just hope others feel the same way
MrM
for those who has been there and know the full story it might seem like unneccesary information but for those of us who had no idea it can be an important piece of information.
i am of course implying that people use source criticism and dont buy everything they read on the internet.
for me it was information i appreciated someone shared with me
i just hope others feel the same way
MrM
Michelotti
New member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2015
- Messages
- 1
I have just discovered this fascinating thread which includes comment about a dispute between Leo Fender and Tom Walker.
It is interesting to note that eBay currently has for sale an item described as "Leo Fender 3-Page Written Letter To Tom Walker & 2-Page Response 1975 Music Man".
The web link is
Leo Fender 3-Page Written Letter To Tom Walker & 2-Page Response 1975 Music Man | eBay
The listing does allow some fascinating elements of the text to be read, including the following (from Tom Walker to Leo Fender) :
"However, if you insist upon an accelerated production schedule at the expense of jeopardising the proper structuring of our marketing activities, I feel it would be a mistake on my part to continue" and, at the end of the letter, "I will appreciate your immediate response, because if my personal credit is in jeopardy as you state, I must take corrective action at once".
I would much like to be able to read all of this very relevant correspondence, but the eBay "But it Now" price of $19,999 is rather beyond my means. Although the seller has listed the option to "Make Offer"...
It is interesting to note that eBay currently has for sale an item described as "Leo Fender 3-Page Written Letter To Tom Walker & 2-Page Response 1975 Music Man".
The web link is
Leo Fender 3-Page Written Letter To Tom Walker & 2-Page Response 1975 Music Man | eBay
The listing does allow some fascinating elements of the text to be read, including the following (from Tom Walker to Leo Fender) :
"However, if you insist upon an accelerated production schedule at the expense of jeopardising the proper structuring of our marketing activities, I feel it would be a mistake on my part to continue" and, at the end of the letter, "I will appreciate your immediate response, because if my personal credit is in jeopardy as you state, I must take corrective action at once".
I would much like to be able to read all of this very relevant correspondence, but the eBay "But it Now" price of $19,999 is rather beyond my means. Although the seller has listed the option to "Make Offer"...
Yeah, that letter is very cool. I have some stuff that totally jives with this. Shortly after it was written the stock certificates were issued. I have the letter from the attorney with the details pertaining to it. I also have a paper Leo maintained regarding the initial loan he made and talks about in this letter, and the payments made toward it.
Unfortunately, there had been a lot of misleading/deceptive things said about that era that have been embraced. But, it is really hard to clarify the facts without pointing out intentional inconsistencies and some hard truths. But that letter rather clearly shows what Leo's role truly was from the get go. This was Tom Walker's brand. Leo was president in title only.
One of the things I don't think people really grasp is the fact CLF Research was completely independent of Music Man. They made the instruments, marked them up, sold them to Music man, who marked them up again. CLF Research sourced all their own materials, had their own separate payroll, the only link they really had was Leo Fender. But Leo was all business. He had CLF Research making monthly rent payments to himself for the buildings he owned! So he made money on the rent, the instruments being sold to Music Man, marking up and reselling parts to Music man, and a cut of the sales when Music Man sold them to dealers.
Unfortunately, there had been a lot of misleading/deceptive things said about that era that have been embraced. But, it is really hard to clarify the facts without pointing out intentional inconsistencies and some hard truths. But that letter rather clearly shows what Leo's role truly was from the get go. This was Tom Walker's brand. Leo was president in title only.
One of the things I don't think people really grasp is the fact CLF Research was completely independent of Music Man. They made the instruments, marked them up, sold them to Music man, who marked them up again. CLF Research sourced all their own materials, had their own separate payroll, the only link they really had was Leo Fender. But Leo was all business. He had CLF Research making monthly rent payments to himself for the buildings he owned! So he made money on the rent, the instruments being sold to Music Man, marking up and reselling parts to Music man, and a cut of the sales when Music Man sold them to dealers.
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backagain1
Well-known member
Here's a good read about the history of Music Man. I can't vouch for the accuracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Man_(company)
Best wishes,
backagain1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Man_(company)
Best wishes,
backagain1
There are some little things that are off.
George may remember 1979 being when the split happened, thinking it was before G&L R&D and launch in 1980, but there really was an overlap. From what I see in materials purchases, items made just for Music Man, preamps, mute assembly screws, and associated other outsourced parts, had orders "suspended until further notice" notes written by George in April 1980. These orders were cancelled in October 1980. That time gap inbetween is likely when things like CLF Research making components that were sent to Charvel MFG for finishing and assembly, discovery of the straight rods, and termination of relationship between Music Man and CLF Research occurred.
Sabre basses may have been launched in December 1978, but they only made one. It was a sales sample and likely the one used in catalogs and ads. Guitars did not follow. Guitars came before basses. They launched the guitars in April 1978. For a while they made primarily Sabre guitars. In fact, In the first three weeks of production, they made 264 Sabre guitars. Sabre production was heavy until the late summer/early fall of 1978. Then it quickly dropped and the Stingray basses quickly took command of the production. Just like what had happened in 1977 when the Stingray guitars tapered off.
The Sabre development is actually very interesting. The guitars came together rather quickly. It appeared the basses did too. They were already stocking Sabre Bass components in inventory early in 1978. There is a note in the Music Man purchase orders that they wanted to get the bass out in October 1978 within a +/- 8 week time frame. The first Sabre bass bodies were run through the paint shop in October. But only one neck was run through, in December used on a sample with a neckplate B serial number as a sales sample. Who knows why it didn't actually get launched until 1979.
George may remember 1979 being when the split happened, thinking it was before G&L R&D and launch in 1980, but there really was an overlap. From what I see in materials purchases, items made just for Music Man, preamps, mute assembly screws, and associated other outsourced parts, had orders "suspended until further notice" notes written by George in April 1980. These orders were cancelled in October 1980. That time gap inbetween is likely when things like CLF Research making components that were sent to Charvel MFG for finishing and assembly, discovery of the straight rods, and termination of relationship between Music Man and CLF Research occurred.
Sabre basses may have been launched in December 1978, but they only made one. It was a sales sample and likely the one used in catalogs and ads. Guitars did not follow. Guitars came before basses. They launched the guitars in April 1978. For a while they made primarily Sabre guitars. In fact, In the first three weeks of production, they made 264 Sabre guitars. Sabre production was heavy until the late summer/early fall of 1978. Then it quickly dropped and the Stingray basses quickly took command of the production. Just like what had happened in 1977 when the Stingray guitars tapered off.
The Sabre development is actually very interesting. The guitars came together rather quickly. It appeared the basses did too. They were already stocking Sabre Bass components in inventory early in 1978. There is a note in the Music Man purchase orders that they wanted to get the bass out in October 1978 within a +/- 8 week time frame. The first Sabre bass bodies were run through the paint shop in October. But only one neck was run through, in December used on a sample with a neckplate B serial number as a sales sample. Who knows why it didn't actually get launched until 1979.
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John C
Well-known member
I agree; the undwinding of Leo from Music Man and the ending of the CLF contract to product MM product (along with the start of G&L and the eventual retirement of the "CLF Research" name reads pretty much like the depositions in a bitter, public divorce (which in a sense it was a "business divorce"). I'm normally over on the guitar side, but this thread pulls me over here from time to time.
syciprider
Well-known member
Love this thread revival
Jfinelle81
New member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
- Messages
- 3
Thread revival.
BrockLEE, if you are still here, Was it possible that epoxy black Preamps made it onto 1979 model Sting Rays? I am doing some research to find out what my Father had. He said he bought it new in 78 and a year later the Pre amp went bad. When he tried to have it repaired the epoxy was no longer an option and he had to switch it to a non epoxy and change a plug or something.
When I posted a picture of the bass back from the early 80's I was told the bridge indicated it had to be a 79.
BrockLEE, if you are still here, Was it possible that epoxy black Preamps made it onto 1979 model Sting Rays? I am doing some research to find out what my Father had. He said he bought it new in 78 and a year later the Pre amp went bad. When he tried to have it repaired the epoxy was no longer an option and he had to switch it to a non epoxy and change a plug or something.
When I posted a picture of the bass back from the early 80's I was told the bridge indicated it had to be a 79.
