Off Topic Stage Volume

[mikeller]

Stage volume has always been a frustrating topic for me - trying balance between getting the amp to respond well and being too loud.

Some background: I mainly play small to medium size clubs, a few outdoor venues etc. My main amp is a Mesa Boogie Maverick Dual Rectifier with 2-12's. I rarely ever get it past 3 on the overall master volume, but I still get comments from the our soundman that it is too loud. Problem is, if I turn it down much further, it just doesn't sound good.

To complicate my thoughts on this, I go to the same clubs I play in and see other players using Marshall 4-12 stacks, Bogner stacks etc.

How are these other guys using these larger amps and still managing stage volumes etc.?

Any thoughts and comments on this topic would be great... thanks

 

[andynpeters]

Not much of an expert, but possibly your listening situation is different when playing than when listening to other bands. When you're out front listening to the mix of another band everything's in its place and it sounds good. When you're playing you're possibly right on top of the amp which isn't necessarily where it sounds best. If you were in your own audience (complicated to achieve) you might find it sounds better than you think .
Other possibilities....the amp's just too big and loud for the rest of your band or the venues you play at??
Not that I should be judging this, I never used an amp in my duo....just a Boss GT5 straight into the PA so there was no stage volume at all.....and no tinnitus in later years either

 

[candid_x]

Perhaps quad cabs disperse the sound more evenly to the stage and room. I've found that 2x12's can be very directional. I had a Twin with Altecs that would cut you in half if you walk in front of it. Another thing to consider is a lower powered amp. Also, have you looked into attenuators?

 

[AndyK60]

Hi,

Maybe consider a power attenuator something like a Power Brake or Weber Mass

Just got one myself and well pleased with it, crank the amp then dial it down to the level thats right for the club.


Andy

andyk60

 

[hbucker]

All of the above are good ideas. I've experienced the very directional speaker thing too and find it very irritating. My current 410 cab isn't directional at all and I love that. you can walk around in front of it and not really encounter any hot spots.

I use a 112 for our church worship and that works fine. We only mic them and use them on stage as monitors (pointed away from the audience) The sound guy runs everything through the mains. Here stage volume can be an issue too but not so much since you really only need to hear yourself.

As far as tone goes, you have several options that I can think of:

1. Get a different amp with less power so you can drive the power tubes harder. It isn't unthinkable at all to get two or three different amps, each for a small, medium or large venue.

2. Get a pedal or two. Depending on what tone you're after, pedals can be a pretty effective way of getting a "loud" tone at softer volumes.

3. The attenuator is a good idea but I have no personal experience with them and have heard the results can be kind of hit and miss. Conceptually though, that's exactly what you're looking for.

4. Find a less directional extension cab.

5. And the cheapest of all, play around with your current rig. I think sometimes we get caught up in the notion of, "This is how I set my rig for good tone and I don't vary from that..." As I've separated myself from this notion through the years, I've discovered some pretty cool tones that I never expected to get simply because I thought I knew what I liked and how to get it. This isn't to say there isn't a place for your current settings. But maybe your current gigs aren't that place?

6. The point about listening to your tone on the floor and not just in front of the amp is a HUGE point. You sound different out there than you do 5 feet in front of the amp. And preferably, listen while the band is playing. The mix filters out and emphasizes different aspects of your amps tone so it's virtually impossible to tell exactly what your tone will sound like to the audience unless you do this. You may find that while the amp is not set the way you personally like it, it sounds fine and actually works quite well in the mix for that gig.

7. Play around with mic placement on the speaker. I've found I prefer to mic the outer edge of the speaker and have the mic at a slight angle. Your results may vary.

8. One more thing... Don't discount the value of a good sound man/woman. For the most part, what the audience is going to hear will filter through the person running the board. You could have the Holy Grail of tone coming out of your amp but if the sound guy doesn't know what they're doing, you'll sound like crap through the p.a. Likewise, you could have marginal tone coming through your amp and a good sound man can make it sound pretty darn good in the mix. It's actually frustrating most of the time because great sound men are hard to come by. So you spend a long time fine tuning the tone that you're happy with, only to know that it's being eq'd through the p.a. by someone who couldn't identify "good" or "bad" guitar tone if it bit them on the a$$. It's sad but true.

Long story short, there are many variables that go into the tone that your audience hears. Some of them you have the ability to control or adapt to. Many times it isn't what you like but what sounds best for the setting. Some of the variables you don't control. In those cases, just go with it.

Sorry to ramble but I hope this helps.

 

[wired]

I feel your pain brother. My stage volume has been too loud since.......ok, I've never had a soundman ask me to turn up.

Don't be afraid to make the sound guy work around your stage volume.

 

[candid_x]

I'm not gigging anymore, but one thing I typically did in smaller clubs was to bring a long cord and walk around the audience section while playing. It at least let me know the "hot spots", as hbucker called them. Sometimes a simple eq tweak solved the problem, or facing the amp a little this way or that. It's not just volume. Then I'd switch to a shorter cord for the night. Everyone else in the band seemed to appreciate it.

 

[universe777]

I agree with hbucker 100%. It's weird how an amp sounds totally different on the stage floor than it does to the house. Have you noticed that? After you've been standing in front of your amp turning knobs for hours to dial in your perfect tone all it takes is to move maybe 10 feet away from it and it sounds completely different.

I would suggest seeing if you can borrow a wireless system and go play your sound check from out on the floor so you can hear how your amp "really" sounds and how it's sitting in the mix.

If there's no wireless to be had what I've done a few times is to record myself (with no eq or effects) jamming alone for 10 or 15 then play it back via cd/mp3 player plugged into the amp. This lets me dial the knobs based solely on what my ears are hearing without reference to actually having to play at the same time, plus it frees you up to walk around the room/house and hear how standing in different places affects the sound.

Good luck!

 

[chrisallen]

can you face your cab more towards your head/ears? i angle my 2x12 cab toward my ears so i'm not louder than i need to be. many people with 2x12 or 1x12 cabs and who have to stand about 1 foot away from their amp or so... this translates into turning up louder than you might need to, while the people in front of the speakers directly (usually the audience) are getting NAILED with volume.

 

[fatoni]

weber beam blockers or keep the channel volume low and the master high. i kinda feel you on the rectifiers always being too loud its kinda its niche. most of the people who play recs play too loud and the other side of the mesa family (marks) kinda put their tone in a range that isnt being used in order to stand out. when playng in a live situation you can cut back on gain bass and treble and rely on the band to fill the sound out but remeber that solos are never too loud

 

[mikeller]

Thank for all for the excellent comments and suggestions. We have sidewashing the amp when the stage allows, and I always use an amp-wedge to angle it up towards me.

I think the biggest issue is keeping the volume down low enough where the soundman can have control of it in the mix. I am guessing alot of guys just don't bother trying to mic and mix it in at the board and just let the stage volume carry it.

 

[TNT]

Drums (acoustic) set the volume - everyone else works around that to establish the mix, be it soft, loud, etc. . . .!!

 

[beej]

4. Find a less directional extension cab.

Yeah, I think this is on the money. (Ditto beam blockers.)

If you really need your amp to run at that volume and attenuators, etc don't do it, then have a look at your speakers.

Less efficient speakers can help, beam blockers do wonders, side washing the stage so only you hear it, etc. Or get an open back/ported cab, one that disperses well.

These days I find I much prefer my 2x12 open back cab. It doesn't thump as much as a sealed cab, but it sounds fantastic and disperses well. I can crank it up and I never get complaints about the volume- but I can hear it anywhere on stage.

 

[Tim O'Sullivan]

One of the many advantages of using a Line 6 amp is that it sounds much the same at 1 or 10. I think that if I was playing all of my gigs using a sound man I would use a POD and have my own powered monitor. As it stands at the moment, I am playing 99% of my gigs without being mic'd up. I always try and balance my stage volume to the drummer on the whole.

 

[Tim O'Sullivan]

Yeah, I think this is on the money. (Ditto beam blockers.)

If you really need your amp to run at that volume and attenuators, etc don't do it, then have a look at your speakers.

Less efficient speakers can help, beam blockers do wonders, side washing the stage so only you hear it, etc. Or get an open back/ported cab, one that disperses well.

These days I find I much prefer my 2x12 open back cab. It doesn't thump as much as a sealed cab, but it sounds fantastic and disperses well. I can crank it up and I never get complaints about the volume- but I can hear it anywhere on stage.

+1 on open backed cabs - they do seem to disperse sound much better.

 

[mikeller]

The Maverick does have a partially open back - not as open as say a Fender, but it is not completely closed either. Thanks again for the suggestions

 

[ScoobySteve]

If your situation allows, I've always been MOST successful in preserving tone at close and long distances by mic'ing my amp and running it through the mains.

If not, then the other advice here is great as well.

I always run around with a long cable during soundcheck to make sure my volume level is just right.

 

[MN246]

When I previoiusly used a 5150 half stack for gigs, I had the same problem. I ended up turning my amp around to face the back of the stage and mic'd it with a Shure SM57.

Just about any tube amp I've ever played had to be pretty much cranked to get the really good tones out of it. Now I'm using a Rocktron Prophesy and it has amazing tone at any volume.

 

[mikeller]

I can get pretty good tone with my pedals and the Maverick, as long as I can get that volume at the right level, and I don't think that "right" level is excessively loud. It is only when they want me to turn down to absurd low volume that it gets me concerned

Thanks again - its great to get other experiences and viewpoints.

 

[Astrofreq]

drums (acoustic) Set The Volume - Everyone Else Works Around That To Establish The Mix, Be It Soft, Loud, Etc. . . .!!

Correctomundo!