Sterling Valentine string action issue?

[JackOfBlades]

Sterling Valentine owners: do you have issues or struggle trying to setup a low action on your Valentine?
I can't get lower than 1.70 mm on my high E string and after studying the structure of the guitar, I'd like to hypothesize it could be due to the thickness of the bridge plate (it measures 2.40 mm, when it could be between 1.80 and 1.25 mm thick, for example) and maybe the angle of the intonation screws going into the saddle (it's around 30°, instead of being 90° straight into the saddle) affects that a little. The neck is dead straight, with a very, very slight and healthy concave relief.
My current setup is 1.50 mm on my low E and almost 1.75 mm on my high E while maintaining the 9.25 radius of the fretboard. My goal is to make it 1.25 on the high E. Keep in mind, the saddles on both the high and low E are almost hitting the bridge plate, so they won't go any lower.

Possible solutions are shimming the neck or changing the bridge all together to one with a slimmer plate (I'm considering Hipshot's hardtail .125 bridge plate).

Thoughts?

 

[DrKev]

Welcome to the forum!

Shimming the neck is the appropriate method to fix this. In fact, while shimming is often suggested on internet forums as the cure for many ills, this is only reason shims are actually necessary - if the required action cannot be obtained by saddle adjustment alone.

After-market plates may not fit the guitar. Make sure you measure the hole and screw diameters, positions, and the string through hole spacing and positions before you buy.

 

[racerx]

Hey Jack - did you set the neck relief first? Everything else is downstream of that, so I'd start and confirm that if you haven't.

On my BFR Valentine I only went as low as ~1.75mm (bottom of unfretted string @ 17th fret to fret crown)-- 1.25mm seems crazy low and (IMO at least) not practical. Even on a flat-radius shredder neck that seems like a pretty aggressive goal.

Otherwise I'm with DrKev - a neck shim could be helpful and more reasonable than swapping bridge plates. Whats wrong with the current 1.5mm measurement?

 

[DrKev]

Hey Jack - did you set the neck relief first? Everything else is downstream of that, so I'd start and confirm that if you haven't.

On my BFR Valentine I only went as low as ~1.75mm (bottom of unfretted string @ 17th fret to fret crown)-- 1.25mm seems crazy low and (IMO at least) not practical. Even on a flat-radius shredder neck that seems like a pretty aggressive goal.

Otherwise I'm with DrKev - a neck shim could be helpful and more reasonable than swapping bridge plates. Whats wrong with the current 1.5mm measurement?

He can't get lower than 1.7 mm (is a little over 4/64") on the high E. He should be able to go lower than that, even on a 9.5" radius board.

 

[racerx]

He can't get lower than 1.7 mm (is a little over 4/64") on the high E. He should be able to go lower than that, even on a 9.5" radius board.

Maybe its a difference how/where measuring but that still seems insane to me. I tolerate a little buzz on the guitar (as long as not thru amp) and my action feels freaky low compared to most other guys guitars. Everyone always comments how light/easy my guitars are to play and my target is ~1.75-2mm.

 

[DrKev]

A lot depends on the player too. Players with a light touch can get away with a lot and some people are more tolerant of a string buzz too. A buddy of mine is a pop-rock strummer and he loves his high-E down down at 1.2 mm to 1.5 mm, 3/64"- 4/64". Amazes me every time. I'm probably similar to you, I can't get lower than 1.5 mm without being very unhappy, and I keep it a 1.75mm, but that's down to how I play. But the guitar should be capable of getting down lower than that if someone wants to go there.

 

[tbonesullivan]

Definitely check the neck relief if you haven't. If you still have a problem, time to shim the neck.

 

[JackOfBlades]

Thank you guys for all of your replies! I'm going to answer and clarify a couple of things:

1. I'm measuring on top of the 12th fret: top of the fret to bottom of the string and I'm considering that the string height is the top of the line in my ruler where it meets the bottom of the string. I'm using MusicNomad's String Action Gauge in case you're curious.
2. The low E goes as much as 1.50 mm but the high E can't go any farther than 1.7 mm, and this is with a .11 string gauge set.
3. If I shim the neck, does the fretboard will need a fret leveling job?

Question: is the shim something that SBMM or other manufacturers takes into account that players will or could do while doing their own setups? I have a Jazzmaster and a Strat that haven't needed shims, I have shimmed just one instrument before (it was an EVH Wolfgang Standard), is this regular in guitars with bolt-on necks? I ask truly from a ignorant point of view, not trying to criticize or make comparisons, thanks!

 

[Astrofreq]

I shim the neck on every guitar I have. I like low action and it allows me to have a completely straight neck with .09-.42 strings.

I also probably sound like a broken record around here, but I don't do measurements or any of that. It's all feel for me and I work on every guitar I have until it plays like I need. Maybe I'll pull out a ruler and check measurements just to see what I'm getting. I'm sort of curious now.

EDIT: So on my Cutlass,

Action on the High E is about 1mm at the 3rd fret and about 1.25mm at the 17th fret
Action on the Low E is about .8mm at the 3rd fret and about 1.25mm at the 17th fret

 

[BrickGlass]

Without question the high E string should be able to go as low as 4/64" and even 3/64" without having to shim the neck. Every electric guitar I've ever owned I set the high E at 3/64" and the low E at 4/64". RPS hybrid EB strings.

OP, is the neck straight? Is it bowing in either direction? Something is wrong if your neck is straight and you can't go to 4/64" on the high E.

 

[fbecir]

BrickGlass, most of the non US/UK people use metric units

A nice article on the subject : How NASA Lost a Spacecraft From a Metric Math Mistake | SimScale

 

[Astrofreq]

This isn't rocket science. It's rock and roll!

 

[JackOfBlades]

Without question the high E string should be able to go as low as 4/64" and even 3/64" without having to shim the neck. Every electric guitar I've ever owned I set the high E at 3/64" and the low E at 4/64". RPS hybrid EB strings.

OP, is the neck straight? Is it bowing in either direction? Something is wrong if your neck is straight and you can't go to 4/64" on the high E.

Yes, it's as straight as it can go: according to MusicNomad's Truss Rod Gauge, the relief measured at the top of the sixth fret while the first fret is being fretted is .15mm or .006".

 

[DrKev]

Truss rod measurements are made by fretting at the 1st fret AND the fret where the neck joins the body. (I capo 1st fret, hold string down at 17th fret, and measure at the 7th). Make sure the guitar is playing position and not lying on its back for all action and relief measurements. My ballpark numbers for starting are 0.20 - 0.25 mm (0.008" - 0.010") neck relief. You can happily adjust more or less than that if you prefer, but that a great place to start. Once that is dialed in, then adjust the string action with saddle height adjustments.