Theory Books/Links/Advice

[mammoth]

Thanks for an awesome response guys!

Hi guys and gals!

Sorry its taken so long to reply! I got caught up grooving around, settling for sheer physical training of my hands last night.

Well.. where to start!

I'd love to reply to all you comments individually but (being at work right now) i have to spend my time doing nothing

First I like to point out that I agree with most people's opinion of playing purely by ear. I've been an improv player since day one and have made a hell of alot of progress from the sheer joy of creating lines with my band.

What I've come to realise, and this is backed up by the theorists out there. Is that although you don't HAVE to learn theory, and you don't HAVE to know why and what sounds good. It can't hurt to have the tools and the knowledge available to you to enable speedier progress than playing by ear alone.

Sometimes i've found learning the slightest possible bit of theory gives me a new slant on what im doing and why.

Hence.... why i'm going to be hunting down some good books to read!

Many thanks to all your reccomendations. The Way I see it:

I can't fit my Bongo on my knee while on the toilet > i poo alot > i love to read books while poo'ing > i need a good stack of bass theory books to read while taking a poo

mmm.. maybe too much sharing there

Cheers Guys and Gals!! I'll be back at lunch for more researching on the reccom's

BOOMSHANKA

Mammoth

 

[roballanson]

now, back to the original question. books i have found infinite inspiration in are as follows...

*rufus reid - the evolving bassist
*michael moore's bass method (no, not the political documentarian... the upright bassist michael moore)
*marc johnson's concepts for bass soloing
*gary willis - linear fingerboard harmony (or something like that)

As an upright man you must also be familiar with the less than inspiring book by Simandel......dull but it stays with you......

 

[Slim]

Now you decided to read, do you read music? Do re mi? Start from there. I never studied guitar or bass on books but I played piano when I was little and played clarinet in marching band so I know how to read music since I was a little kid. That was all I needed to be a musician. Being a guitarlist I learned basic theory by ear such as relative minor, major, substitute chords, passing chords ( diminish chord usually works ), and chord melody, etc..
Good luck

 

[muggsy]

I've perused a bucket load of web-sites and i can't bare to pick up the "Bass Guitar for Dummies" that i got purchased for me (no, i dont need to know what to look for when buying a bass mr book, i own a freakin bongo!"

You could do a lot worse than open the pages of that book.

Agreed. There's actually a lot of good stuff in that book, and the theory is presented in a way that's easy to understand. I've struggled with theory over the past several years, through lessons and several books, so I've seen the material presented in different ways. Don't be dissuaded by the title, and skip over the chapters you don't need.

For those of us who weren't born with great ears, theory can be a big help. When I used to try to play along with a CD by ear, it was painstakingly slow because I didn't understand how chord progressions work. Theory gives me a basis for determining what might come next, since I've learned the hard way that my ears aren't as reliable as I'd like. My goal is to get to the point where my understanding of theory is internalized (so I don't have to think about it consciously), but that's a long way off.

Ed Friedland's books are great too.

 

[NoFrets80]

Simandl

As an upright man you must also be familiar with the less than inspiring book by Simandel......dull but it stays with you......

Rob,
Yes yes, I know Simandl well. Though I am primarily from the Streicher school in terms of technique, along with Michael Moore and Charlie Haden, I studied Simandl a lot as part of my reading regimen early on. It is dull, but it will get your bowing together fairly quickly. The worst part is that some of those dull melodies get stuck in your head after a while....

 

[strummer]

I'd advise anyone to learn to use their ear first and theory second. I know loads of people who rely on music theory and they struggle without the music there in front of them as a backup.
Ive been playing for 14 years and never once had to look at a tab, sheet or any other form of music theory. Considering i listen to Joe Satriani, Steve Vai and Paul Gilbert, ive learnt plenty of their songs solely by listening to them.
Guys like Eric Clapton and Billy Sheehan cant read music and they have done ok.
I can see how it can be interesting though.

You have an awful lot of strong opinions, don't you?

However, I think you are confusing music theory with sight reading. And while I agree that some players that began playing whatever instrument solely by reading tend to get a bit stuck if you remove the sheet, saying that it is actually better not to be able to read music is just wrong. Imho, of course.

By copying Satriani, Vai or whoever, you are just committing stuff to memory, and I would argue that you actually learn very slowly. You will no doubt pick up certain things, but why settle for crumbs when you can have the whole cake? Again, imho.

By the way, I never learnt to read clef, and for that I am sorry. Nowadays I'm too lazy to bother...

 

[mammoth]

ok, its agreed. I WILL pick up the "Dummies" book and realise that i shouldn't feel patronised by a book

i really like the idea of gathering a few eclectic theoretical musings, but i guess i can start there

I did use to play the Euphonium and thus can read stave music to a certain level but left that behind me... years of alcohol and rare-groove destroyed the Euph player in me!

i keep telling my guitarist... "you want a musician, go get a flute player. I my freind, am a bass beserker"

its ignorance and its bliss!

 

[ibanez2005]

i couldnt agree more. i can figure out a bunch of stuff by listening etc. but i have friends that i jam with who have theory knowledge and they automatically know stuff like "oh, i can solo in XXXX scale now and that will fit".

I dont know these thing. i can screw around and come up with something but folks like my ceo, jeff, just "know" b/c they've studied theory. obviously its not the coolest lick right away but at least he knows when to start with.

So just because i dont know theory means i cant solo/improv in any scale or key or set of chords?
Thats BS, if you've got a good ear then you can improv over anything.
You guys are all arguing that theory is the only way you can learn music and its not, ive havent looked at sheet music since i did Music at school, and even then i didnt know how to read music, and i still got an A+ for my improvisations and performances that i submitted.

How can some of you argue that theory is the holy grail when some of you cant even read it?

 

[roballanson]

Rob,
Yes yes, I know Simandl well. Though I am primarily from the Streicher school in terms of technique, along with Michael Moore and Charlie Haden, I studied Simandl a lot as part of my reading regimen early on. It is dull, but it will get your bowing together fairly quickly. The worst part is that some of those dull melodies get stuck in your head after a while....

oh God yes had forgotten the melodies......thanks matey.....

 

[mammoth]

chill out ib@nez dude

everyone has to have their own way of getting what they want from their music, i just feel like trying the otherway for a couple of weeks

 

[muggsy]

So just because i dont know theory means i cant solo/improv in any scale or key or set of chords?
Thats BS, if you've got a good ear then you can improv over anything.
You guys are all arguing that theory is the only way you can learn music and its not, ive havent looked at sheet music since i did Music at school, and even then i didnt know how to read music, and i still got an A+ for my improvisations and performances that i submitted.

How can some of you argue that theory is the holy grail when some of you cant even read it?

If you look back at this thread, nobody said "theory is the only way you can learn music." It can help you get better. No matter how good you are, there's always room to improve, and if you don't know theory, it's one way to get there.

In your last sentence, you're confusing music theory with reading standard notation. Not the same thing.

 

[strummer]

So just because i dont know theory means i cant solo/improv in any scale or key or set of chords?
Thats BS, if you've got a good ear then you can improv over anything.
You guys are all arguing that theory is the only way you can learn music and its not, ive havent looked at sheet music since i did Music at school, and even then i didnt know how to read music, and i still got an A+ for my improvisations and performances that i submitted.

How can some of you argue that theory is the holy grail when some of you cant even read it?

Congratulations on your exceptionallly good ears, and your instant understanding of the underlying theories.

When you are finished patting your back, please realize that we are all trying to help mammoth out here. And frankly, your attitude does not help one iota. I think your attitude towards music theory is because you are a very gifted and terribly lazy kid.

 

[slucas]

When you are finished patting your back, please realize that we are all trying to help mammoth out here. And frankly, your attitude does not help one iota. I think your attitude towards music theory is because you are a very gifted and terribly lazy kid.

 

[Slim]

I think more talented musicians never needed to study music. For example Wes Montgomery never studied jazz theory he just played. Pat Matheney (jazz fusion guitarlist) once quoted that if only he could play like Jimi Hendrix he would have never gone to music school (Berkley?). I think real music comes from your heart but if you don't have that you better study to be a session player or find a different trade

 

[NoFrets80]

I think more talented musicians never needed to study music. For example Wes Montgomery never studied jazz theory he just played. Pat Matheney (jazz fusion guitarlist) once quoted that if only he could play like Jimi Hendrix he would have never gone to music school (Berkley?). I think real music comes from your heart but if you don't have that you better study to be a session player or find different job

... and yet, Metheny constantly talks about how he is still trying to get better, and is practicing all the time, even after playing for 35+ years professionally. he never went to "school" in a traditional sense, but is in school all the time on his own terms. i'm not sure if he ever actually attended Berklee... he was a teacher there when he was in his mid 20's on Gary Burton's recommendation. pretty hip, eh?

 

[Hutton]

I think more talented musicians never needed to study music. For example Wes Montgomery never studied jazz theory he just played. Pat Matheney (jazz fusion guitarlist) once quoted that if only he could play like Jimi Hendrix he would have never gone to music school (Berkley?). I think real music comes from your heart but if you don't have that you better study to be a session player or find different job

OK. You can quote talented musos who didn't study music but that certainly does not mean that ALL talented musos didn't study music. That is the implication of your argument by suggesting that those who study should solely become session players. Are you honestly and truly saying that it is only those who didn't study music that are talented and play from the heart, and that those who study merely become machines churning out session after session. Try turning up at a recording studio and suggesting that to those who work there. After first of all making out your last will and testament.

I really hope that you don't mean what you are saying or that you are still under the influence from the New Year festivities!

 

[mobass]

I think the book eadg4 is a good theory book. Also, norm stocktons grooving for heaven volume 2 dvd, there is a section on modes that will help a lot.

 

[adouglas]

Nobody NEEDS to study music to play music, just as you don't NEED to study the rules of grammar and spelling to speak English...or NEED to receive instruction in art to be an artist.

But knowledge can give you greater skills and the ability to express yourself better. This is self-evident. Why limit yourself by disregarding it? Knowledge is empowering. Ignorance stifles creativity and closes the mind.

Knowledge of theory is in no way a substitute for skilled musicianship, which I think might be what Ibanez is trying to say. But I firmly believe that it can give a skilled musician the tools needed for better expression.

It is entirely possible to get through life with no education whatsoever. But an education clearly gives you a better life. I would argue that the enlightened individual remains a student for life, constantly seeking new knowledge, always open to new ideas, always willing to question their own beliefs in the face of new knowledge. The person who thinks they know everything will never grow or become better than they are.

 

[Slim]

Pat Matheney is an excellent musician because he kept on going to get better, but his music does not posess the magic power. I have listened to many songs or guitar solos by him but after few years of not listening to him I don't recall any of his melody or not even any riffs. I love Robben Ford's guitar playing even though he probably studied music but he also has a heart. I really did not mean that you can only be a session musician just one of options by studying music. I love playing in front of people rather than sit in studio but it is different idea for different folks

 

[Aussie Mark]

John Entwistle, Jack Bruce and John Paul Jones are all good enough reasons to suggest to me that understanding theory can make you a decent bass player.