MingusBASS
Well-known member
+1 and I don't know about The Ox or Jack Bruce but John Paul Jones WAS a session musician before joining Led Zep.
- Thread starter mammoth
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Slim
Well-known member
I did not know either but I love to practice Led Zeppelin songs on bass especially Immigrant song and Whole lotta Love with slap and pluck technique and go faster and faster
Aussie Mark
Well-known member
Entwistle studied piano and french horn before taking up bass, and Jack Bruce had classical training on cello (and later moved to double bass). When asked why he took up electric bass, Jack famously replied "because of the volume"
bovinehost
Administrator
There you have it.
And the analogy about English (or any other language) is perfect, because music really is a language. It has its own grammar.
As a teacher, linguist, translator and lover of language, I have to be open to the questions posed by students. And then I have to be smart enough to explain the answers.
I can speak English all day long, but if I want to really understand it, I have to study. What I got in school will never be enough, but the moment I think I know all I need to know to get by, I am intellectually corrupt.
Now I am a lunch-pail bassist and barely understand what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm always open to learning.
Jack
scottbass71
Well-known member
My 2c
I think learning theory gives you another String to your Bow ( or bass ) and gives you another avenue to practice because sometimes I get sick of sight reading, others days get sick of learning songs by ear etc.
Also Knowledge = Power
I think learning theory gives you another String to your Bow ( or bass
) and gives you another avenue to practice because sometimes I get sick of sight reading, others days get sick of learning songs by ear etc.Also Knowledge = Power
SteveB
Well-known member
Not that I'm eager to sustain this thread, but what the heck?
I had the privilege to jam on several occasions (back in high school) with a kid who was a keyboard genius. He was a classically trained pianist, as was his mother. He could play anything on a piano or synth.
When I would jam at his house, we'd bark out keys and progressions and take turns improv'ing stuff. He had a blast because he'd never met a guitar player who knew any theory, and we managed to make some nice sounding jams.
Now, I had lots of theory in school but from a compositional angle. I never had a guitar there with me and I never made much effort to apply all that theory to guitar except when I jammed with this brilliant pianist.
That was around 20 years ago, and I am only recently getting around to trying my hand as a student of the guitar. It certainly proved valuable when playing with someone else with a knowledge of theory.
Funny thing is, I believe the guy later switched to electric bass, much to his mother's chagrin! And I just moved into a house that's two streets away from his parents!
I had the privilege to jam on several occasions (back in high school) with a kid who was a keyboard genius. He was a classically trained pianist, as was his mother. He could play anything on a piano or synth.
When I would jam at his house, we'd bark out keys and progressions and take turns improv'ing stuff. He had a blast because he'd never met a guitar player who knew any theory, and we managed to make some nice sounding jams.
Now, I had lots of theory in school but from a compositional angle. I never had a guitar there with me and I never made much effort to apply all that theory to guitar except when I jammed with this brilliant pianist.
That was around 20 years ago, and I am only recently getting around to trying my hand as a student of the guitar. It certainly proved valuable when playing with someone else with a knowledge of theory.
Funny thing is, I believe the guy later switched to electric bass, much to his mother's chagrin! And I just moved into a house that's two streets away from his parents!
Not that I'm eager to sustain this thread, but what the heck?
I had the privilege to jam on several occasions (back in high school) with a kid who was a keyboard genius. He was a classically trained pianist, as was his mother. He could play anything on a piano or synth.
When I would jam at his house, we'd bark out keys and progressions and take turns improv'ing stuff. He had a blast because he'd never met a guitar player who knew any theory, and we managed to make some nice sounding jams.
Now, I had lots of theory in school but from a compositional angle. I never had a guitar there with me and I never made much effort to apply all that theory to guitar except when I jammed with this brilliant pianist.
That was around 20 years ago, and I am only recently getting around to trying my hand as a student of the guitar. It certainly proved valuable when playing with someone else with a knowledge of theory.
Funny thing is, I believe the guy later switched to electric bass, much to his mother's chagrin! And I just moved into a house that's two streets away from his parents!
Go see if Mom is willing to teach you what she taught him
tk
phatduckk
Well-known member
umm, dude - what's your issue? i didnt say that.
mammoth
Well-known member
i feel like i've started something impossible to resolve in a way satisfying all parties.. at least it shows we all love our bass!!
now then... hands up who wants to just go the pub and talk about why 2 9V batteries are better than 1!?
giggle
now then... hands up who wants to just go the pub and talk about why 2 9V batteries are better than 1!?
giggle
StevieDee
Member
I've been playing for around 20 years and have relied entirely on the old ears and feel, I've played all sorts of music and depped for guys at a moments notice and my lack of theory knowledge has never been a problem.
However, like one of the earlier commenters I'm going to go for lessons and hope to learn some theory because I love playing the bass and I love music and just want to enjoy it even more than I do at the moment, it's just always great to learn something new.
I think what I'm saying is one doesn't preclude the other, do whatever you want it's a free country!
However, like one of the earlier commenters I'm going to go for lessons and hope to learn some theory because I love playing the bass and I love music and just want to enjoy it even more than I do at the moment, it's just always great to learn something new.
I think what I'm saying is one doesn't preclude the other, do whatever you want it's a free country!
Psycho Ward
Well-known member
My .02 bat hide...
I played quite a while by ear before I studied music theory, after learning theory I found my playing by ear had improved… greatly! I was able to pick out melodies and parts much faster. I could understand from the bass part what the chords would most likely be; I was able to harmonize things right away. Music makes more sense to me now. A little music study saved me a lot of time, far better than reinventing the wheel trying to figure stuff out on your own.
That said, with all the bands and artist I’ve worked with since college, every one of them when they hired me, handed me a tape and said “here learn this”.
I played quite a while by ear before I studied music theory, after learning theory I found my playing by ear had improved… greatly! I was able to pick out melodies and parts much faster. I could understand from the bass part what the chords would most likely be; I was able to harmonize things right away. Music makes more sense to me now. A little music study saved me a lot of time, far better than reinventing the wheel trying to figure stuff out on your own.
That said, with all the bands and artist I’ve worked with since college, every one of them when they hired me, handed me a tape and said “here learn this”.
adouglas
Well-known member
+1. One of my great frustrations in the past has been trying to pick up a part from a recording on which the bass is buried in the mix. You can tell you're not doing it right, but it's impossible to pick out what you *should* be doing.
Learning some theory has helped me make educated guesses at what's really going on and I've had a much easier time learning new stuff since.
Slim
Well-known member
Well put by StevieDee.
I never went to books because I was learning something new every day from playing. I figure books will help some but I never really like to read period. I was fortunate enough that my early playing days lots of new style of music was being created and I feel lucky to play some great players in those days In 1972 I was invited to come to Bolinis California to do some recording on electric guitar by jazz pianist Eddy Sears (played with Woody Herman Orchestra) and I was introduced to Steve Swallow (Gary Burton's basist) and Tony Williams (drummer) and did some fusion music recordings. I did not know much musical theories at that time but I was young and fearless so I just played whatever it came to my mind and that was exactly what those jaszz cats wanted from me. Those days jazz players were looking for some new directions with rock influence and they wanted to experiment with rock guitarist who could play freely outside of their knowledge and imaginations. I don't know if they found any new directions from me but they loved the way I played and now I really know more music theories I would be scared to death to play with them again. More you know more fears and limitations you get kind of Well I never wanted to stay in Bolinis because too much free drugs were available in those days and I have seen some musicians burned out
I never went to books because I was learning something new every day from playing. I figure books will help some but I never really like to read period. I was fortunate enough that my early playing days lots of new style of music was being created and I feel lucky to play some great players in those days
In 1972 I was invited to come to Bolinis California to do some recording on electric guitar by jazz pianist Eddy Sears (played with Woody Herman Orchestra) and I was introduced to Steve Swallow (Gary Burton's basist) and Tony Williams (drummer) and did some fusion music recordings. I did not know much musical theories at that time but I was young and fearless so I just played whatever it came to my mind and that was exactly what those jaszz cats wanted from me. Those days jazz players were looking for some new directions with rock influence and they wanted to experiment with rock guitarist who could play freely outside of their knowledge and imaginations. I don't know if they found any new directions from me but they loved the way I played and now I really know more music theories I would be scared to death to play with them again. More you know more fears and limitations you get kind of Well I never wanted to stay in Bolinis because too much free drugs were available in those days and I have seen some musicians burned out
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Hutton
Well-known member
It's come down to that old adage once again: "One man's meat is another man's poison".
NoFrets80
Well-known member
Well put by StevieDee.
I never went to books because I was learning something new every day from playing. I figure books will help some but I never really like to read period. I was fortunate enough that my early playing days lots of new style of music was being created and I feel lucky to play some great players in those days
It's interesting that you mention those cats... Steve Swallow is an amazing composer and educator, with a wealth of knowledge, inside and out, of theory and how everything works. The "new direction" those guys wanted at that time was definitely a conscious thing with relying on feel and emotion more than your standard "run the changes" jazz. But, they knew the rules before they started to break them... isn't that the root of some ancient Chinese proverb? I like the language analogy someone brought up earlier... 95% of us English-speaking forum members probably never thought about learning to read or write. We were around it and simply assimilated it as part of our environment, yet we constantly learned more about it and were taught it in school. You learn by way of both methods. For those folks saying they won't pick up a theory book, or do some reading exercises, is simply being content with only getting half the information out there. We speak so much better when we use our eyes to take in information as much as we do our ears, no?
As an interesting post-thought here, I wrote a new tune for one of the bands I'm in, a decidedly "non-jazz" group compared to what I usually work in. I, by simple force of habit and practice, wrote out the entire thing, around 2 pages, bass and melody parts. I gave it to the other 2 guys in the group, and they looked at me as if I were crazy. They never read, never think about learning to read, and yet I gave them something that is written in the universal language of our craft. I'll gladly make a demo of the tune so they can learn it by ear, which is their preferred method, but it shows how nice it is to be able to give someone the written version and go from there with arranging and interpreting it. In contrast, most of the material they give me to learn is not written out. I learn by using their CDs and what we work out in rehearsals, and then make my own charts, essentially in a Nashville Number format.
Interesting thread... I like the healthy debate!
adouglas
Well-known member
Back to actual book recommendations....
Just picked this up at lunch:
Hal Leonard Pocket Music Theory
ISBN 0-634-04771-X
Only a few bucks, and it appears to be concise, clear and understandable. It's theory and notation only, which is the way it should be IMHO. Theory shouldn't be tied to a specific instrument.
Just picked this up at lunch:
Hal Leonard Pocket Music Theory
ISBN 0-634-04771-X
Only a few bucks, and it appears to be concise, clear and understandable. It's theory and notation only, which is the way it should be IMHO. Theory shouldn't be tied to a specific instrument.
Slim
Well-known member
What NoFrets80 had written is very true that reading is important I am just telling my experience only. As I posted earlier on this thread I took cllasical piano lessons when I was first grade in Japan and I played clarinet in marching band so I knew how to read music at early age, but I never studied guitar and bass from book. Many people had told me that my guitar style is very different from others and I think because I never took guitar lessons from guitar teacher. I really wanted to be saxphonist when I was 13 but my father could not afford saxphone so he bought me a cheap guitar. So I may play guitar like horn players may. I am very melodical person and always melody comes before rhythm in my head so playing bass is developing rhythm sense and I like that. Maybe the best book to start is piano practice book such as Sonatina and Sonata
I am just telling my experience only. As I posted earlier on this thread I took cllasical piano lessons when I was first grade in Japan and I played clarinet in marching band so I knew how to read music at early age, but I never studied guitar and bass from book. Many people had told me that my guitar style is very different from others and I think because I never took guitar lessons from guitar teacher. I really wanted to be saxphonist when I was 13 but my father could not afford saxphone so he bought me a cheap guitar. So I may play guitar like horn players may. I am very melodical person and always melody comes before rhythm in my head so playing bass is developing rhythm sense and I like that. Maybe the best book to start is piano practice book such as Sonatina and Sonata
strummer
Enormous Member
Maybe the best book to start is piano practice book such as Sonatina and Sonata
I have had a real party with a book called The New Breed, which is for drummers, so go figure
