This should stir things up!

[MN246]

I just checked out a Good Charlotte video on youtube to because I had never heard Benji Madden before. I think it is safe to rule him out of this conversation. A player should at least be able to complete the full Mel Bay's series before being considered as best here.


As for all the other endorsers, they are all incredible musicians. I've got Morse, Petrucci, and Vinnie Moore all in the cd changer in my car. I like them all.

 

[philiprst]

Tony Levin.

 

[Sodacake]

I'm partial to Lukather, but they are all monsters...

I'd have to pick Lukather too. Not only is he technically a monster but his session work will show that he's one of the most versatile guys around.

 

[BigTony]

Of the Music Man endorsers who play rock/progressive/neo-classical, who do you think is best?

That is such a tough question. It really depends on what day of the week it is. Sometimes I listen to JP and I love the melody he just played, his technical expertise is incredible too, sometimes Aunt Lucious makes me groove to his incredible funkyness and soul, and sometimes AL just smacks me in the mouth with his incredible chops. I will then listen to Dean or Tristan, these guys don't have thier own models, but **** can these guys play, and with soul too.

So, in answer to the question, who do I think is best.............Big Poppa ofcourse!

 

[chrisallen]

Nigel... he has more pickups than anyone else. so he wins.

Hands down. No contest.

 

[Astrofreq]

Everyone disses Benji, but Good Charlotte sells more records than probably all the other EB artists combined. Before you shredders play Devil's Advocate and say, "who cares how many records he sold, that doesn't make him good." I would reply to that, playing fast doesn't make someone good either. Morse, Petrucci, etc are all great players. I'm not saying they aren't by any means.

ALL I'm saying is all EB artists were chosen for a reason. Benji has a signature guitar, and you and I don't. Does Benji get respect from the guitar community? No, and I guarantee he's not losing any sleep over it when he goes to bed in his freakin' MANSION (I saw the Cribs episode). He's doing something right. No offense, but I couldn't careless what the guitar community thought of my playing if I was playing music I enjoyed and was successful at it.

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[Sweat]

Nice vent Rad, my original post about the Benji was tongue n cheek, an attempt at humor, yes they sell lots of records, not my musical taste but we are all unique in what we like and dislike, plus I did like his sig axe, just personally need more than one PUP on a guitar, and by the way he has one very hot girlfriend, my brother has meet here in LA,smokin hot

 

[Tim O'Sullivan]

+1 on Nigel Tufnel.

 

[MN246]

Everyone disses Benji, but Good Charlotte sells more records than probably all the other EB artists combined. Before you shredders play Devil's Advocate and say, "who cares how many records he sold, that doesn't make him good." I would reply to that, playing fast doesn't make someone good either. Morse, Petrucci, etc are all great players. I'm not saying they aren't by any means.

ALL I'm saying is all EB artists were chosen for a reason. Benji has a signature guitar, and you and I don't. Does Benji get respect from the guitar community? No, and I guarantee he's not losing any sleep over it when he goes to bed in his freakin' MANSION (I saw the Cribs episode). He's doing something right. No offense, but I couldn't careless what the guitar community thought of my playing if I was playing music I enjoyed and was successful at it.


I didn't mean to dis Benji, but he's definitely not a very good guitarist. Kurt Cobain sold a lot of records and made a lot of money but it didn't make him a good guitarist. EBMM is in business to make money, and if they can reach a market through Benji Madden that they don't have access to through their other endorsers they have to do it. I think it is a pretty good bet the if he wasn't as popular as he is, he wouldn't have an endorsement deal with EBMM.

Vinnie Moore, JP, and Morse don't reach a huge audience compared to other musicians, but their technical prowess makes them great endorsers. With these guys, even if you don't listen to their music you can appreciate that if someone of their ability plays EBMM, then it's a good bet the instruments are of a high quality.

I don't think that someone is good because they can play fast, but if a person can play fast and clean at the same time, it is a good indication of their technical ability.

 

[Astrofreq]

>I think it is a pretty good bet the if he wasn't as popular as he is, he wouldn't have an endorsement deal with EBMM

That goes for any endorsed player.

>Vinnie Moore, JP, and Morse don't reach a huge audience compared to other musicians, but their technical prowess makes them great endorsers.

Does it? Don't get me wrong, those are all GREAT guys to be seen playing EB guitars, but what I mean is that EB doesn't sell jillions of guitars because the people they endorse aren't known outside of 30 something and up guitar players (and their wives ). I would say that if EB endorsed 10 Benji Maddens out there in 10 dorky big power pop bands, the company would be in a different place entirely. It's about exposure, not skill.


Question: Do you think Pepsi had Britney Spears doing ads because of skill? Or, should they have chosen James LaBrie because he's a better singer?


>Kurt Cobain sold a lot of records and made a lot of money but it didn't make him a good guitarist.

You're totally making my point for me. I'd say a guitar player who "sold a lot of records and made a lot of money" IS good, especially when you measure GOOD by what people are willing to pay for.

Thanks for stirring this up. I'm totally enjoying this thread.

 

[BigTony]

>

Question: Do you think Pepsi had Britney Spears doing ads because of skill? Or, should they have chosen James LaBrie because he's a better singer?

Apparently James didn't like the fact that Pepsi leads to baldness, Jordan Rudess had already fallen prey to its power long before anyone warned Britney.

 

[MN246]

>I think it is a pretty good bet the if he wasn't as popular as he is, he wouldn't have an endorsement deal with EBMM

That goes for any endorsed player.

>Vinnie Moore, JP, and Morse don't reach a huge audience compared to other musicians, but their technical prowess makes them great endorsers.

Does it? Don't get me wrong, those are all GREAT guys to be seen playing EB guitars, but what I mean is that EB doesn't sell jillions of guitars because the people they endorse aren't known outside of 30 something and up guitar players (and their wives ). I would say that if EB endorsed 10 Benji Maddens out there in 10 dorky big power pop bands, the company would be in a different place entirely. It's about exposure, not skill.


Question: Do you think Pepsi had Britney Spears doing ads because of skill? Or, should they have chosen James LaBrie because he's a better singer?


>Kurt Cobain sold a lot of records and made a lot of money but it didn't make him a good guitarist.

You're totally making my point for me. I'd say a guitar player who "sold a lot of records and made a lot of money" IS good, especially when you measure GOOD by what people are willing to pay for.

Thanks for stirring this up. I'm totally enjoying this thread.

I would say this is the really the other way around, you're making my point for me. On the one hand you say that a person is good at what they do based on how much money they make. Then you say that James LaBrie is a better singer than Britney Spears even though she makes more money???

So, by your logic, you should be switching to Fender guitars, because they obviously make superior guitars than EBMM based on a comparison of their annual earnings statements.

 

[Astrofreq]

I would say this is the really the other way around, you're making my point for me. On the one hand you say that a person is good at what they do based on how much money they make. Then you say that James LaBrie is a better singer than Britney Spears even though she makes more money???

So, by your logic, you should be switching to Fender guitars, because they obviously make superior guitars than EBMM based on a comparison of their annual earnings statements.

You're missing my point. Good in the sense of they are doing something that people will pay for, not good in terms of technicality, and that is no less of a skill.

The Labrie/pepsi comment was about endorsement choices. Why do you think Pepsi chose someone like Spears over than over a Labrie?

I gotta go. more later.

 

[MN246]

Hey Radrock, I'm enjoying this so I don't want you to take anything I say as a flame. I believe you have two issues here. The first is technical talent while the second is marketing. If you want to sell a lot of something through product endorsement you hire someone who is well known and well connected to your target audience. Likewise, if you want to sell a moderate amount of something to a specialized audience, you hire endorsers who have a draw with that group.

I'm sure that the endorsement deal with Benji Madden produces some sells for EBMM although I'm sure it's probably their least selling model. I would bet it is probably their least expensive guitar also. The Good Charlotte audiences are going to be mostly comprised of teens and very young adults because it doesn't take very long usually for people to outgrow that type of music. EBMM makes premium professional quality instruments. Most teenagers can't afford Music Man guitars.

I bet most of us hardcore EBMM supporters are 30+ years old and well established professionals. The rest of us that don't fall into that catagory are probably working accomplished musicians. Some of us fall into both catagories. We indentify with the commitment to excellence that guys like Morse, AL, Luke, JP, and Vinnie Moore have made, not to mention the incredible commitment to quality and excellence that Big Poppa has made. That's what makes them great endorsers, not to mention the signature models really do benefit from the insight of these players. So I'm not trying to dis Benji, but he's not why most of us are here, nor is he technically anywhere near wothy of being considered in the same company as the rest of the EBMM endorsers.

 

[philiprst]

Interesting discussion....

I've always felt that EBMM endorsers are more like part of the EBMM family than people who's only importance is their ability to sell lots of guitars. My guess is that EBMM approaches endorsers that way. I think it is also notable that EBMM makes their signature models exactly as the artist wants them not because the market is driving them in a certain direction.

As far as good guitarists is concerned, I think that is a rather slippery concept. As guitarists it is natural for us to seek out those with techinical prowess at the frontier of guitar playing. That is, for the most part, what we mean by a good guitarist. The record buying public probably feels that a good guitarist is whoever plays are writes their favorite songs. For them the writing of popular songs and catchy riffs is paramount.

Personally, I lie somewhere in between. I do enjoy listening to technical guitar players but there always seems to be something missing if the song doesn't catch my attention.

 

[Astrofreq]

MN246, I'm totally enjoying this and I don't take anything as a flame or anything. It's all good! Being able to sell 1,000,000 records definitely takes a skill, even if they skill isn't being a technical guitarist or singer. I can play pretty darn fast, but I can't sell 1,000,000 records. Gene Simmons can't play bass for anything, but he's built an empire. That takes a huge amount of skill which is worth millions more than technical prowess on an instrument. Even just getting to the place (like Britney) where you are even chosen to be marketed like that takes skill.

>>Most teenagers can't afford Music Man guitars.

What's the difference if they even haven't heard of them? I got two of my ASS's on Ebay for less than $800 anyway. I have about 25 guitar students right now (probably 20 under age 20). I promise you that not one has heard of SM, VM, or JP. I ask them who Billy Joe is and they'll know. So, when that rich kid's parents want to buy him an electric, that kid is going to say whatever BJ plays, I want. Period. Can Billy Joe play guitar? Who cares? He's influencial.


Look at it this way, go to the Good Charlotte forum and play them a Dream Theater song (talk about different ends of the rock spectrum). They'll say, "that's the worst music I've ever heard". Guaranteed. So, who's right? Them or us? Well, both and neither, because music is a matter of taste. I'm NOT saying that there isn't a standard by which good music is measured (another thread for another day), but I am saying that technical difficulty has absolutely nothing to with it.


Believe me, I love MM guitars and I think it is setup exactly how BP wants it to be (creating a relatively low number of instruments, small family owned company, HIGH quality, and good endorsers). Fine by me.

 

[Sub1 Zero]

This thread is a huge can of worms... I agree with both radrock and MN246 partially.

MN246, I'd say you are kinda right about the age group thing, but maybe not. I am only 20, so I'm one of the kids of this group (my playing shows it ), but off the top of my head there's kismyaxe, Tyler, and 73 nils who are all young guys like myself as well, and believe me we are all spreading the word. I think EBMM's younger following is only going to keep growing.

As for the whole talent vs. entertainment debate, it could go on and on... For me, guys like Glenn tipton and K.K. Downing, Kirk Hammett, David Gilmour, and Marty Friedman are some of my heroes. Why? Because I think they walk a fine line, between being technical and just being flat out entertaining. All of those guys are capable of playing at least pretty decent, but can also get inside a whole stadium full of people who probably don't even play a musical instrument. It's all about energy + emotion for me with music, so poppy cookie cutter stuff doesn't work for me either, believe me. Another important thing to me, is the players attitude and personality. I can't stand jerks.

As of late, I've been getting into Lukather and and Morse. Also, I've known about Dream Theater for some time, since they are kinda down my musical alley, and I've always liked them. However, I never knew Petrucci was an MM artist until I got more into EBMM.

At the end of the day, I think both of these factors are good to have. I think a person should just play what comes natural to them and makes them happy. As Marty Friedman would say, just concentrate on enjoying what you love and don't worry about hating the music you don't like (although that can be a real blast )

Alright, I'll shut up now

 

[Astrofreq]

Marty is a genius.

 

[Bass Control]

Tony Levin.

I agree...

Nah, as much as I like Dream Theater and Petrucci, I would have to go with Morse.

 

[Sub1 Zero]

Marty is a genius.

Damn skippy