Top of the Beat

[T-bone]

I don't know about the rest of you knuckleheads, but just about every time I go into the studio to record I find I'm almost always on the top of the beat (damn it). I think I play that way live, too, and unfortunately Pro Tools isn't there to save my arse when I'm up on stage.

Any suggestions?

tbone

 

[bovinehost]

For me, it's a combination of things that work.

1. Relax. Easy to say, hard to do, especially with, say, Dave LaRue in the audience, but WTF, I have a vodka and try to not think too hard about what my hands might be up to.

2. Do other things. I have to pay attention to vocals, harmonies, what our guitarist is up to, whether the drummer is going to faint, etc, which keeps me busy enough to just go on autopilot a lot.

 

[maddog]

experience.

I played sousaphone in a marching band for 10 years and tuba in symphony bands for 12. I can keep time like a mother. Just gotta practice at it.

 

[SteveB]

Practice with a metronome or drum machine.

 

[KennethB]

Sometimes though, being on top of the beat is the place to be. Not when you play a blues-shuffle though hehe.
I'd suggest that you relax of course and "listen more than you play" if you know what I mean?
Also try to record yourself as often as possible, even when you're at home playing to records. After a while what you "hear while playing" and what goes down on tape will be the same. If you train yourself and focus you'll in the end be able to play on top/behind/in centre of the beat at will.
I have a natural inclination to play slightly on top of the beat myself. I like the kind of drive it gives a track. I'm a rocker at heart I guess. For some styles it doesen't work though. Then I have to "reign myself in" and lay back more to make it feel right. I can do it because I've learned it at one point. Also listen to as much good music as you can, in every style. Learn from "the greats". There are many, but above all else: Listen !!

 

[fly]

i use a drum machine every time i practice.........sometimes it's good to be on top......and sometimes it's good to be on the bottom.

 

[AnthonyD]

On top... behind... In front...

I've never really understood this conceptually, except to think it somehow relates to playing "out of time"...

 

[KennethB]

Well, then again, possibly every note you've ever played has been "out of time".

 

[The Rodg]

Trick of the Trade

If you are fortunate to be playing with a great drummer you can use this method. I still use it from time to time if the sound is not definitive in the venue we are playing and I am not able to hear or feel the kick drum precisely.

If you can't "feel" the groove...

Keep an eye on what your drummer is doing. Try to synchronize the attack of your note with the attack of the drummers kick drum foot. When that beater hits the skin is the eaxct moment your finger should be across the string.
This works great for 4/4 straight ahead stuff as well as 3/4 and 6/8. Of course the idea (if you are using this technique more often than necessary) is to ween yourself off all visual aspects of what is happening around you and emmerse yourself in the rich milky grooveness of being one with the drummer . Once you find a pocket with the drummer you will know it by how good the groove feels. It takes the enegry of the music to a higher plain of existence which is just a fancy way of saying you are finally playing in time with your comrades.

Of course if you don't have a great drummer to buddy up with you might as well just relax and not worry about anything because a pocket will not form until everyone is on the same page rhytmically.

 

[KennethB]

A good drummer is essential to get the groove going. But really, every band member needs to be groovin'. I've played in a band where everyone was playing good time except for the keyboard player. He ruined every groove. The band didn't last. As far as playing with a drummer, what I'm looking for is where the drummer puts the snare. If I'm locked with his snare I know I'm fine. Sometimes it's hard to hear the kick drum, but since I know what he's playing I know it's going to be tight with the kick since I'm locked with the snare drum. Some drummers puts the snare in creative places though, so be aware.

 

[T-bone]

Thanks for all the great advise! Following the kick has always been my motto. And I really try to stay in the pocket as much as possible. However, when playing rock, I do find it works (or isn't as noticeable) being on top of the beat. It pushes the music (without speeding up) and gets people out dancing (they're all out there dancing because of us, the bass players - right?).
It's primarily when we're recording I notice it. First off, it's right there in front of me (Pro Tools - what a great program). Even though it's an ever so slight amount, it's still there. Now granted it's an easy fix (just move it over) but it's still there - damnit. Whether I'm watching the drummers foot or looking at his track on the screen, I still have this tendency to come in on top of the beat. Not every time, but damn, it's enough to start asking for help.

Hello, my name is tbone and I play on top of the beat.

tbone

 

[The Rodg]

I've played in a band where everyone was playing good time except for the keyboard player. He ruined every groove. The band didn't last.

Don't get me started about keyboard players with terrible timing and busy left hands!!! It's easier to find Waldo on "Google Earth" than find a pocket with musicians like that..................

Why can't we all just have precision timimng? hahaha

 

[The Rodg]

Then again I suppose we are to celebrate our differences, even in rhythmic timimg. Might help to explain freeform absrtact jazz!!!

 

[Kirby]

Usually every town has some great blues jams and some pretty awful ones. I learned to lay back playing with some really great blues players. Also good lessons on how less is more there too. Seek out these blues jams and sit in regularly, soon it will be second nature.

 

[KennethB]

Great drummers are worth their weight in platinum! I have a saying: If I'm having an "off day" and the drummer's great, you can just turn me down in the mix and nobody will notice. But if the drummer's bad, then I can be "Jaco multiplied with Jamerson" and it'll still sound as if I'm the one who's wrong!! That's why drummers are more important than bass players.

 

[T-bone]

Usually every town has some great blues jams and some pretty awful ones. I learned to lay back playing with some really great blues players. Also good lessons on how less is more there too. Seek out these blues jams and sit in regularly, soon it will be second nature.

I'm with you Kirby. I've been quite fortunate to play with some great blues players here in Portland. Yet as much as I love the blues, I can only take so much 1-4-5. So I think it's really more of a recording issue. And for those of you use Pro Tools, are you always dead on with the kick? If so, dang, I've definitely got a problem.

And KennetB - I'm with you on the drummer. I'm very fortunate to have a couple of great drummers I can lock in with (well, most of the time). But a solid drummer is worth his weight in tequila.

Bovinehost - maybe wodka is the key. Tequila just amps me up.

tbone

 

[PocketGroove82]

On top... behind... In front...

I've never really understood this conceptually, except to think it somehow relates to playing "out of time"...

There is a big difference between playing "out of time", or against the time (i.e. some latin), or with no time , than laying back behind the beat. As much as it has to do with the attack of the note, I feel it has as much to do with the decay.

If anyone would like a demonstration of this, I recommend D'Angelo's song, Playa Playa. Pino is so far back, but he's perfectly in time, and groovin' with the drummer.
Hell, get the whole album. It's really truly great R&B, HipHop, Funk, Rap, whatever you want it to be.

 

[bovinehost]

are you always dead on with the kick?

My God, no. I play a lot of what could generously be called 'fast country shuffles' and I'm sure the drummer and I are off as much as we are on, but it works anyway.

Some things, you want to lock in to that kick. Other things, nah. It's way overrated and way overworked (my opinion).

Jack

 

[tkarter]

Playing with good time means practicing good time keeping. Metronome on 2 and 4 until you can groove along with that.

imho

tk