Volume Pan Question 6165 NOT Piezo related

[zakmetal]

New to the forums guys, I frequent HRI, TGP and Rigtalk but those guys aren't helpin.

So here is my dilemma.
I (will) have a Diezel Herbert that has a parallel FX loop. I have a Yamaha Magic Stomp pedal and a EB 6165 pedal. I want to put my Magic Stomp in the parallel fx loop as it is not ideal to pass your dry signal through. All the patches on the Magic Stomp will be set to 100% wet, and the parallel fx loop will be set around 50%.
That theoretically will be perfect, UNTIL I just want a dry signal. I have seen guys use the radial big shot mix to put the Magic Stomp in and then it is essentially true bypass with an onboard wet dry mix, then I could theoretically put it in a serial fx loop. BUT I would have to buy that and its either on or off, I can't fade into the Magic Stomp.

So here is my theory,
Could I run and split the send from my parallel fx loop to go to input A of the 6165 AND the input of the Magic Stomp simultaneously, then run the out of the Magic Stomp to input B on the 6165, connect either of out puts (doesn't matter which, or does it ) to the return of my parralel fx loop. This way I could "blend" the dry send signal and the wet Magic Stomp signal separately and combine them with the 6165 to run back to the return.
Essentially this is like 2 Mono inputs to 1 combined mono out. Is this possible with the 6165? If not is there a different way I could use the 6165 to do this?
I know this is a strange set up but it would be cool to still have a parallel set up with the Magic Stomp AND be able to blend the fxs in.
Thanks guys,
-Zak-

 

[Spudmurphy]

Hi ZAk and welcome to the forum.
I have a 6165 pedal and have promised to do some video clips to demonstrate all the switching options on it.
The pedal is in my rehearsal space, I'll pop around tonight and pick it up for ya, and I'll try and post some clips on the weekend.
Spud

 

[zakmetal]

Spud you are the man, do you work for EB, if you don't they should hire you. I look forward to your video. If it is as helpful as your other reply's, my question should be answered. I am most interested in the internal connections/routing of this pedal and what signals are routed where.
Thanks a million man, and if anyone has done this before, please let me know.
Thanks,
-Zak-

 

[Spudmurphy]

Ok - just got back from the rehearsal space, and I have the EB6165 pedal with me - (I needed something for tonight's gig anyway!!)
I have taken a video clip which along with my earlier one will explain the switching options.

I'll try and upload the clip later but I have to go and set up soonish - prolly be uploaded tomorrow.

I've had a little play around with the pedal to discover what and what it couldn't do.

My findings:-
1) Well my earlier clip says it all regarding the stereo mode.
In this clip I took the stereo out of the guitar into input B of the pedal.
Then I took output A of the pedal which is the Piezo signal to my AER and output B which is the magnetic pickups to my tube amp. OK that doesn't answer your question
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODOYu17uxU"]YouTube- SDC10668[/nomedia]



2)In this clip (soon to be uploaded - see above) I took my mono Albert Lee guitar and plugged the braided cable into input A of the pedal. I took the output A (yellow lead) to my AER set clean (well ya can't set it any other way) and output B to my Mesa. The results - well you can fade between the two amps and by pressing the toe switch, you can swell both the amps up and down in tandem.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8kuwiBN6sw"]YouTube- SDC10943.AVI[/nomedia]


3) I then took the mono outputs from two of my guitars into the pedal and despite messing around with all configurations - could not get the 2 guitars to work together in any way.

I'm an old soul and get all confused by parallel fx send / wet /dry - in my day I just went straight into my Marshall 50 head - however, in view of 3) above, I don't bleeb that it will do what you want it to?

If you want me to try out any other configurations let me know.

I wish I did work for EB, but I have been lucky enough to help out Strings n Things in the UK on two occasions

 

[Jonny Dubai]

You da man spudder!

 

[mojomkr]

6165 Volume Pedal

My Set up with the 6165 Volume Pedal-------->

85W Fender Twin Reverb w/ EH Black Finger compressor plugged into "out"

(A) on the 6165---40W Fender Tweed Deluxe Ltd w/ Vox Big Ben overdrive

pedal plugged into "out" (B) on the 6165. Then my ASS going to "In" (A) via

the 6165. The kick switch one way will be sweet stereo pan tremelo affect

between the amps. Kick switch 2nd position will be straight volume pedal.

If you have a Piezo it would go to "In" (B) on the 6165 volume pedal---->

I also have my Ernie Ball Wah in the mix and the tones are endless.

I believe too many pedals, IMHO wrecks the tone and I keep it as simple

as possible. That's just me though. If you have two amps, I would highly

reccomend the Ernie Ball 6165 Volume pedal. It's works as a full A/B amp

switcher and Volume pedal to boot. Some days for me it's like I have to

change the tone around and it's inspiring. Running a super clean tone on

one side and creamy milk shake distortion on the other side and being able

to control the tone with my Volume and Wah pedal is just simple and works

for me. It also helps to have an Ernie Ball Super Sport as well. Hope this

Helps

 

[zakmetal]

First off thanks a million for the help guys I really appreciate it.

My set up may seem convoluted but I really only have 1 guitar (mono signal no piezo) running into 1 amp (Diezel Herbert) with one pedal (magicstomp). I have the guitar, magic stomp, and 6165 already and the Diezel is on its way. I will be able to check out all of this soon (2 or 3 weeks from now) I just wanted to see if anyone else had looked into these options.

So basically the 6165 CANNOT do 2 mono in's combined to 1 mono out. Right?

 

[ShaneV]

This may be simpler than it seems at first. If the magic stomp is running 100% wet than theoretically bringing it in or out of the chain shouldn't effect the overall volume, just the volume of the effects (which is I think what you're trying to compensate for with the wiring scheme you mentioned). Simply placing the volume pedal either before or after the Magic Stomp (depending on how you want the fades to sound) and using it to bring your effects up and down in volume (the Steve Morse method) should work just fine. Obviously you'd have to test it out and make sure it works okay but i can't see any reason why it wouldn't. The 6165 isn't the ideal pedal for this application (the 25k volume pedal would be) but it should be okay.

 

[Spudmurphy]

So basically the 6165 CANNOT do 2 mono in's combined to 1 mono out. Right?

As far as my experimentation goes - no it can't.

Just about to upload the video clip to my earlier post Edit Utube is taking forever to "process" the video I have uploaded!!! - so I can't post ther link yet

 

[beej]

Maybe I missed something, but as ShaneV pointed out, why make it complicated?

You want a way to blend the Magic Stomp in and out, why not run the parallel loop send to the Magic Stomp, into a mono VP and then back to the amp's FX loop return? With the VP all the way down you'll have only dry signal. Step on the VP to gradually blend in the wet signal, then back it off for dry again.

This is how I have my time based FX set up with my Guytron (parallel loop usually around 30-40% or so) and it works like a charm. You can play 100% dry with the VP backed off. It's the Steve Morse approach, he does it with all of his time based effects.

Added bonus: if you want to run an extra wet amp, just run the output of the VP to a small keyboard amp, etc. rather than back to the loop return.

Again, apologies if I missed something.

 

[zakmetal]

I could be wrong in my assumption here but the send of the fx loop is essentially connected to a pot that will allow me to control the percentage of dry signal that gets internally (in the amp) routed to the return and the percentage routed to the send out. So if the knob is set at 50% dry/50% wet then the implication is that half the signal is present if nothing wet gets back to the return. Therefore if I for instance had the VP all the way down then only 50% of the signal will be getting back to the amp and I would think I would be at half the volume. In this scenario, I would only have 100% signal when the pedal was all the way up. That is why I would want something that could control the percentage of the other 50% that is not internally routed back to the return. Does that make sense?

I will try what you guys are suggesting when I get the head in a couple of weeks but theoretically half of my signal will be missing and there for my volume would be at half the level.

I am looking into making some modifications to a Stereo Effect Switcher by loop-masters.com. If I could add a mix knob to control wet dry percentage that would be close to what I am looking for AND it would be stereo. If I wanted to control the percentage with an expression pedal, I could use a third hand. Tone In Progress Third Hand at Musictoyz.com! Real Time tweak and dialing in parameters, Use with time length controls or depth control, tremolo speed, vibe fuzz delay distortion!

Any other ideas? The stereo function is not initially imperative but eventually it will be a feature that I would like.

Perhaps Morse is doing something via a midi loop switcher? Or perhaps he prefers the increase in volume when his wet signals is added.

Thanks again guys I REALLY appreciate it.

-Zak-

 

[ShaneV]

I could be wrong in my assumption here but the send of the fx loop is essentially connected to a pot that will allow me to control the percentage of dry signal that gets internally (in the amp) routed to the return and the percentage routed to the send out. So if the knob is set at 50% dry/50% wet then the implication is that half the signal is present if nothing wet gets back to the return. Therefore if I for instance had the VP all the way down then only 50% of the signal will be getting back to the amp and I would think I would be at half the volume. In this scenario, I would only have 100% signal when the pedal was all the way up. That is why I would want something that could control the percentage of the other 50% that is not internally routed back to the return. Does that make sense?

I will try what you guys are suggesting when I get the head in a couple of weeks but theoretically half of my signal will be missing and there for my volume would be at half the level.

I am looking into making some modifications to a Stereo Effect Switcher by loop-masters.com. If I could add a mix knob to control wet dry percentage that would be close to what I am looking for AND it would be stereo. If I wanted to control the percentage with an expression pedal, I could use a third hand. Tone In Progress Third Hand at Musictoyz.com! Real Time tweak and dialing in parameters, Use with time length controls or depth control, tremolo speed, vibe fuzz delay distortion!

Any other ideas? The stereo function is not initially imperative but eventually it will be a feature that I would like.

Perhaps Morse is doing something via a midi loop switcher? Or perhaps he prefers the increase in volume when his wet signals is added.

Thanks again guys I REALLY appreciate it.

-Zak-

Since you're running the effects 100% wet by your terms 50% of the signal is all that ever can be present in terms of pure dry sound. The rest is only whatever effect you have the magic stomp creating. If you're using it for delay, for example, then the signal going through the loop is purely delayed, with no dry signal returning via the loop's return jack.

If you were using an effect that did not have the capacity to run at 100% wet in a parallel loop it would work as you're describing (and also cause some annoying phasing issues in the case of a digital effect) but since the effect in question is running 100% wet, no dry signal returns through the loop regardless of what you do.

 

[Spudmurphy]

You tube took all night to process the vid - it's now posted as the second clip in post #4.

 

[beej]

Ah, ok, you're concerned about volume. Remember, % of signal isn't going to translate into perceived volume (in the same way that a 100W amp isn't twice as loud as a 50W amp).

I do this all the time and I can tell you it's rarely an issue. If the effects in your loop are 100% wet you don't need much volume from them to be very noticeable. You won't need to set the loop % too high or dial too much of it in to have a major increase in volume. Some volume increase, yes. But not enough to make a big difference.

Perhaps Morse is doing something via a midi loop switcher? Or perhaps he prefers the increase in volume when his wet signals is added.

No, his dry signal splits to various delays, fed to volume pedals, back to a mixer, and into a wet cabinet. Again, there's a bit of an increase, but not that much. You might be surprised how little volume you need from the web signal to be effective. Lots of guys do this with W/D setups, so it's not usual.

I'm sure you could build something to compensate for the signal going to the parallel mix. You could set your loop to serial and get a mixer where you control the mix via a pedal. (Look at getting something like the MiniMix modded etc). Not an inexpensive solution, and I don't know if you'd really hear a noticeable difference.

My advice is to try the parallel blend approach in a band setting and see. Lots of guys do it, myself included.