Volume pedal question

[summerof69]

Hi guys
I've got am EB VP JR volume pedal I'm trying to figure out and not sure where to post this, so I'll start here.

My volume pedal really sucks volume. Amp volume is much louder if I bypass the volume pedal. Is there a way to stop that?

Right now my chain goes: Guitar > tuner> compression pedal > distortion pedal >Chorus pedal > Volume pedal > delay pedal > amp. Have I got the chain set up correctly?

The Pedals are all good stuff (Boss).

Any ideas what's going on here, or if I should re-align my chain?

Also, when folks talk about a separate "effects loop" here, how is that chained together? Do you just use the stereo outputs on one of the pedals to split the signal and have the effects pedals plug into a second input jack on the amp? Is that something I should be doing too? What are the advantages of a separate effects loop?

Thanks


Thanks

 

[Spudmurphy]

Welcome to the forum.

Do you use active or passive pickups in your guitar?

 

[Spudmurphy]

There is good info here:-
http://www.ernieball.com/faq_content.php?subjectcode=vol_pedals

 

[summerof69]

my guitars are all passive

 

[Spudmurphy]

Passive pickups into an EB pedal - the VPJR 250Kshould be ok.
You ought to try running the effects chain after the pedal (apparently so the EB FAQ's say).

There is a forum member here- runs by the name of Beej. He has a fantastic knowledge of this kind of thing. See if he pops by or I'm sure he won't mind a PM from you. (tell him Spud sent ya).

Let us all know how you sort this out?

 

[summerof69]

thanks spudmurphy.
I have tried putting the effects pedal first, and had the same issue.
would appreciate any other suggestions any one may have.

 

[beej]

Thanks Spud, I felt my ears burning Was in New Orleans / Baton rouge for the weekend ... should take another week to detox. Was busy pulling for the LSU Tigers!

summerof69-

The Boss pedals are all buffered, so you'll want the 25k volume pedal, to be used after one of them. Though, the 250k would work as well.

Btw, an "Effects Loop" is the point where you can insert effects between the preamp and poweramp stages of your amplifer. You'd run your guitar into the amp, then from the amp's FX Loop you'd insert effects that sounds best after the preamp section, like delay, chorus, reverb, etc (effects that don't sound good when distorted). Then you'd run back into the amp's poweramp section. Hope that explains it.

As for why there's a volume drop with your volume pedal- there really shouldn't be. Your signal chain looks good. Are you using the correct input/outputs on the VP? Perhaps it's not opening all the way up, so the pedal is attenuating some of the signal?

Maybe try just guitar -> volume pedal -> amp and see what happens. Make the signal chain really simple and see if the pedal is the problem, or if it's something else. Try a few different cables, maybe there's a bad one in the batch.

 

[summerof69]

Thanks Beej.
You said:

"The Boss pedals are all buffered, so you'll want the 25k volume pedal, to be used after one of them. Though, the 250k would work as well."

So are you thinking I need a different volume pedal than the EB VP JR? Or are you saying I should put the VP JR after one of the effects pedals?

Sorry to be so dense here.

Thanks also for the info on the effects loop. I have a couple of Fender Hot Rod Deluxe amps and an old Traynor twin twelve/100 watts from the early 1970s (forget the model number but it's basically the Canadian version of the Fender Twin Reverb). Would I be correct in assuming those amps are incompatible with an "effects loop" as you've described above?

Appreciate your assistance.

 

[Spudmurphy]

Thanks Spud, I felt my ears burning Was in New Orleans / Baton rouge for the weekend ... should take another week to detox. Was busy pulling for the LSU Tigers!

Hi Beej
Sounds like a great weekend!
I was a little out of my depth on this and could only offer basic advise to summerof69.
I knew that you knew! - and glad that you were able to offer some help here.

Summer - please let us know if it all works out - this would be a great reference thread for someone with similar problems in the future.

 

[beej]

There are two VP, Jrs. 1 has a 250k pot (pot=variable resistor) (#6180), 1 has a 25k pot (#6181). I was saying that after your Boss pedals, the one you want is the 25k version (for active electronics/low impedance signals). Note that the 250k version (for passive electronics/high impedance signals) will work fine; it's just that the sweep of the pedals will end up being different.

With regards to the FX Loops- if you have one, you'll see 1/4" jacks on the back of the amp. They're either there, or they're not. The Hot Rod Deluxes probably have them. The old Traynors, probably not. (I'm a Canuck ... I love the old Traynors ... especially the old Plexi-ish YBA-1 ... that was a fun amp!) Either way you slice it, if you are getting distortion from the amp, you might want to use the FX loop. If you're getting it from a pedal, no real need to. Really, if you like your sound the way it is then do not worry about it, this is informational only.

Back to the original problem- there's nothing really complicated about the volume pedal. It's just a big variable resistor in an aluminum housing. If you hear a volume drop then you could have a bad cable, the volume pedal might not open up all the way, could have a bad pot in there (unlikely), or it could be an interaction with another pedal (also unlikley).

 

[summerof69]

Beej
Yea, I saw you were from Toronto after I typed my last post. My old stomping grounds. I grew up across the river from Niagara-on-the-Lake, in a little town called Youngstown, NY. It's a sailing community, and we'd often sail across the lake to Toronto (30 miles as the crow flies).

We'd go to Toronto for the music and the scene back in the 1960s. I saw Led Zepplin there in about 1967 in a little venue- I'd never heard of Zepplin until I saw them live. Wow!

Anyway, back on topic.

I'm sorry I'm such a dweeb, but I'm just figuring this pedal thing out.

So it turns out I have the 6180- the 250K pot. Is there a recommendation where in the chain to put that pedal? If I'm reading you right, you're saying put the 6180 volume pedal in front of the effects pedals?

If that's right, should I put the volume pedal in front of the tuner too? I was trying to avoid using the tuner out jack, because I heard that set up may suck tone and volume.

I've just re-ordered my pedal chain again so now I go guitar>tuner>volume pedal>compression>distortion>chorus>delay>amp.

Whatcha think? Advice?

I haven't been able to test this new configuration for volume drop- I'll do that tonight.

My Traynor is a Mark III. You'll recall- Traynor used to be huge in the Toronto/Buffalo music scene, so when I found one out here in Idaho, lost, so far from home, I took him in. What a great amp! I was reading how Yorkville Sound used to test their amps by throwing them out a second story window and if they still played perfectly, the design was good to go.

 

[summerof69]

Beej

One more thing on the effects loop.

On the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, I have 2 jacks: "Pre Amp Out" and " Power Amp In". Are these the effects loop jacks? If so, how do I configure an effects loop?

Thanks a million. I really am a dweeb.

 

[fbecir]

One more thing on the effects loop.

On the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, I have 2 jacks: "Pre Amp Out" and " Power Amp In". Are these the effects loop jacks? If so, how do I configure an effects loop?

Hello, I'm not Beej but I will try to help ...

Indeed the Pre Amp Out and Power Amp In are the serial effect loop of the Hot Rod.
You can use it for the effects like the Delay, the Reverb.
Normally, you shape your sound with a distortion pedal or the Gain of your amp (in fact the preamp section of your amp) and after that you add some candy (delay, reverb).
The Effect Loop is serial on a Hot Rod : that means that all the sound goes through it. On some amps (like the Marshall DSL401, you have a parallel loop : just a part of the sound goes through it).
You can use your volume pedal in the effect loop. Thus, it will not change the gain of your sound, just the volume (the sound is already "shapped"). The only drawback is that you will need more cables ...

Good luck

 

[beej]

Hey- no kidding! My folks live in NOTL, right on the lake. I'm in Youngstown quite a bit in the summers ... always a few great parties over there during regatta season.

François answered your question about the loop. Worth trying your pedals in there sometime for fun, FYI.

In terms of "tone suck", which is what you're referring to with putting a pedal in the tuner out jack, I'm afraid there's going to be a noticeable effect whenever you have a volume pedal right after a guitar. Basically, it's like adding another volume pot to your guitar. Each additional pot (i.e. extra resistance) is going to take a bit of brightness away from your signal. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

If, by putting your volume pedal first in line, you notice that you've lost some highs and it bothers you, you'll want to buffer your guitar first with a buffer, Boss pedal, etc. to counter that.

"Buffering" your signal will isolate your guitar from that; the electrical properties of pedals (the effects of resistance and capacitance) down the line. It's a whole topic. Boss pedals are all buffered and, in general, sound good. So plugging into any of your Boss pedals should sound find and you won't need to worry.

No right answer here, everybody has a different preference.

On the VP: my suggestion is to try the volume pedal in front of the amp, after one of your pedals, and for fun, in your loop. See how you like the sound in each case. If you don't hear a difference, then pick the spot that's the most convenient.

The order shouldn't really affect the drop from your VP. Just want to make sure there's nothing wrong with the VP first. Then you can try any order you like! As François mentioned, the real difference is volume after distortion will give you the same sound at lower volumes. Volume before distortion will change the amount of distortion you get as you back off the pedal (just like rolling down your volume knob). Again, go with what sounds best to you.

Very cool on the Traynors. A well kept Canadian secret Here's a dude on Youtube ripping it up through one of the old YBA-1 Bassmasters (very close to a Plexi, with a few minor tweaks):

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8MbdHcIesg]YouTube - Low budget Marshall replacement[/ame]

 

[summerof69]

Great info guys.

I've been experimenting the last few days, and I'm start ing to figure this out a bit.
There doesn't seem to be much volume suck from the volume pedal now- not sure what was happening before (can't even remember my original chain configuration when I started asking all these questions).

So one last question: Is the Boss Tuner pedal also buffered? If not I assume I should put one of the other effects pedals in front of the volume pedal, but for my own personal reasons, I'd like to put the tuner in front of the volume pedal too. That way I can have the tuner always "on", but I can also tune "silently" when I need to by putting the volume pedal in the 'heel down' position.

Beej
It's cool you know Youngstown. NOTL is such an awesome spot. Your parents are very lucky to have a home there on the lake. My folks live on the river, 3 miles upstream from NOTL. I've been out here in Idaho since 1974. I miss Niagara in the summer (but not in the winter!).

 

[beej]

Yep- they're pretty lucky, great place to live (not as much in the winter). Great little colonial town!

The Boss tuner pedal (TU-2) is buffered. The little tuners aren't. If it's the pedal, then putting it first as you describe sounds ideal. Though, I think the tuner mutes when engaged.

Glad it's working for ya

 

[summerof69]

Yea, it's the TU-2.
Actually, it has a bypass jack that allows the tuner to be on, and the signal to bypass through the pedal, so you can tune with the signal still being forwarded on to the next pedal.

Great forum here. Thanks again for everyone's help.