what I would like to have...

[Golem]

`

Just to clarify why nobody NEEDs lines ... I mean some of us
really do benefit from an indicator for every note position ...
but side dots give you almost half the notes visually. I admit
its kinda dicey where there's 3 notes between indicators, as
near the octaves, but all you hafta do, and I ain't proud, IOW
I do it, is paint on the missing dots with nail polish.

I do this to most basses. Assuming white factory dots, I use
a "not quite white" color, or medium shade of brown, for the
additional dots ... so the harmonic dots [the factory dots] are
visually dominant. And, having no pride in this matter, I even
use the white nail polish to enlarge the factory dots at the 1/2
octave and full octave.

I like a complete set of notes visually, but I prefer the visual
message of side dots vs lines cuz it's more truthful. Side dots
show you the progression of notes on the neck and how they
get progressively closer together. But, I mean BUT, side dots
don't tell the Big Lie that lines tell. Lines say "press exactly
here to get this exact note". Well, thaz just NOT true, unless
you close all your notes with a credit card instead of a fleshy
appendage ... a technique thaz OK for setting up your bridge
but really awkward for playing tunes

 

[movielvr]

ok...if the dots are on the lines..i can work with that. i'm sure i'm just as bad on either! it does look super cool.

 

[stu42]

`

But, I mean BUT, side dots
don't tell the Big Lie that lines tell. Lines say "press exactly
here to get this exact note". Well, thaz just NOT true, unless
you close all your notes with a credit card instead of a fleshy
appendage ... a technique thaz OK for setting up your bridge
but really awkward for playing tunes

Hahaha. Very true!! I think not having lines forces you to think about judging your intonation using your ears...which is really a better approach anyway imo.

 

[KevinM]

Hahaha. Very true!! I think not having lines forces you to think about judging your intonation using your ears...which is really a better approach anyway imo.

In a perfect world maybe.
How many times have you been in a situation where the sound wasn't optimal and you couldn't hear yourself very well?
I remember outdoor gigs years ago where I couldn't even hear myself.
I knew what I was supposed to play so I played my parts and left the rest up to the sound man.

I'm not against unlined.
I think they look pretty good and if I didn't NEED the lines for reference I would leave them off.
Note I did say reference.
One thing I learned real quick with fretless was the need for accurate finger positioning.
Right now having the lines helps me keep in good approximation to the correct position.
You get one chance to hit the right note and sorry but I don't play slop.
Besides, how would I know where to put the extra dots if I didn't have the lines in place?

 

[Golem]

In a perfect world maybe.
How many times have you been in a situation where the sound wasn't optimal and you couldn't hear yourself very well?
I remember outdoor gigs years ago where I couldn't even hear myself.
I knew what I was supposed to play so I played my parts and left the rest up to the sound man.

I'm not against unlined.
I think they look pretty good and if I didn't NEED the lines for reference I would leave them off.
Note I did say reference.
One thing I learned real quick with fretless was the need for accurate finger positioning.
Right now having the lines helps me keep in good approximation to the correct position.
You get one chance to hit the right note and sorry but I don't play slop.
Besides, how would I know where to put the extra dots if I didn't have the lines in place?

Lastly firstup, surely you can figger that one out ? Where to put the additional dots ?
Not like I'm gonna esplain it, cuz if you can turn on a PC and type, you CAN do it !

OK, nobody said anyone wants to play slop, but if you can't hear yourself AND hear
a reliable reference instrument in the band [KB is my preference], then you have a
choice between some degree of slop or switching over to a fretted bass. Playing FL
when you can't hear it is unwise, to put it mildly. Myselves, I'll switch to frets even
when I do hear myself BUT cannot hear a reference instrument. On one occasion I
jury rigged a feed from the KB into my bass combo to get that reference.

 

[movielvr]

So, are there dots at every fret position on side of the neck? If so I can deal with that...thanks for all the great responses, BTW

 

[JayDawg]

Plus if you go the Bongo route you can get an HH config with piezo. It's the only model that EBMM makes that you can accomplish that.

I have a Bongo HHp and absolutely love it! It is such a versatile bass, even more so than my regular Bongo's are.

 

[stu42]

No, the dots are only at the normal positions - 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 17, 19, 21 & 24.

That said, for me personally, I just found when I was playing my friends lined fretless that, as Golem said, "the lines lie". In other words, I'd put my finger down on the line expecting the note to be in tune but found that I'd be off probably 50% of the time because I couldn't figure out exactly where, on my relatively skinny 3/4" wide fingers, the main point of pressure would be found. So I just didn't find the lines as helpful as I expected. Maybe with practice you could figure this out.

So, then I decided to order the unlined fretless mainly because I preferred the look and I figured that if people can learn to play the violin or cello or double-bass etc then I could learn to play unlined fretless. Then after I got the bass I was surprised that if you have a reference note to play against then it's not that hard to match your intonation (I use in-ear monitors in my band so hearing myself and the others is not a problem). Plus, I find that it's not that hard to find the midway point between two dots (when you're playing the un-dotted positions) - your eyes are good at estimating the 1/2 way point. It does get trickier, as Golem said, between the 9th and 12th positions and 12th and 15th positions because there you have 2 notes between dots instead of the 1 note between all the other positions.

It also gets tricky above the 12th fret but that is the case for lined fretless too - mainly because the notes are closer together so any rolling of the fingers can affect your intonation much more than when you're playing further down the neck.

So anyway...my point is just that having lines was (for me at least) not really as helpful as I expected and I just preferred to have the dots where my fingers should go as I figured that was more helpful - and I don't regret it at all. Plus, I prefer the look with no lines. It definitely takes a bit of practice to adjust to fretless but I just find that it's not THAT hard (when you can hear yourself and your reference note).

Let's face it...many great bass players play lined fretless (IE Jaco, Gary Willis...and those dudes are amazing) but some others (IE Alain Caron...another monster player) play unlined. So it's not like having lines is like having training wheels or anything like that. It's not a measure of your manliness or skill. It's just personal preference. But you don't NEED them!!

 

[movielvr]

ok...are there line markers at the fret positions?

 

[stu42]

This isn't the worlds greatest, sharpest picture but this is one I had available so I hope this helps. This shows my unlined fretless in front - you can see the blank fretboard and (hopefully) you can see the side dots. The side dots are placed where you need to put your fingers (which is where the frets normally would be). Beyond that there are no lines or other markers. I'm sure it looks baffling to onlookers but when you're playing the bass and looking down at the side dots it's not much different than playing a regular fretted bass - you just put your fingers on the fretboard in line with the dots. And, when you're playing in the in-between positions you can determine the midway point between the dots (I think) fairly easily.

Behind that is my fretted Bongo. A lined fretless EBMM bass would basically look like this except that instead of having frets it would just have lines placed in the fretboard that mark the location where the frets normally would be. However, the side dots would be in-between the lines - just like they are on a fretted bass. And there are no dots on the front of the fretboard on any EBMM fretless. So, with a lined fretless bass you can't really use the side dots to guide you. You have to really put your fingers where the lines are - which I found confusing...especially when going back and forth between fretted and fretless as you have to change how you approach the fretboard in each case. For instance, after playing my friends lined fretless for a while I'd go back to the fretted bass and I'd start playing with my fingers on top of the frets. Or else, after playing the fretted bass for a while I'd initially forget to put my fingers on the lines instead of where the dots are...which just messed me up.

But that could be just me. One thing I'd recommend is...go to a store and check out some fretless basses if possible. If there are some lined and unlined models...play around and see what suits you better.

 

[KevinM]

OK, nobody said anyone wants to play slop, but if you can't hear yourself AND hear
a reliable reference instrument in the band [KB is my preference], then you have a
choice between some degree of slop or switching over to a fretted bass.

I was playing only fretted bass at that time.
One thing I learned to do in my gigging days was to not be bothered by an unfamiliar or unfavorable playing environment.
I learned to be able to perform under less than optimum circumstances including not being able to hear my instrument over other instruments on several occasions. I that situation I was familiar enough with the music that I could play cleanly as long as I paid attention to where I should be in the songs. Not exactly how you would want to do it but those were the circumstances I was dealt and had to make the best of it.

However, the side dots would be in-between the lines - just like they are on a fretted bass. ..................... So, with a lined fretless bass you can't really use the side dots to guide you. You have to really put your fingers where the lines are - which I found confusing...especially when going back and forth between fretted and fretless as you have to change how you approach the fretboard in each case. ...............................which just messed me up.

But that could be just me.

I don't think it's just you. Switching from one system to another takes quick adaptation. I play an acoustic church service with a 4-string fretted bass and a 5-string fretless (lined) bass that I switch from one to another during the service. I have to take a second to key on a certain note (I use the G position on the E string) to get my bearing before I start playing. It's not that much anymore but when I first started with the fretless I almost forgot where I was.

I guess I should say I LIKE the fret lines more that I need them but with the lined fretless dots being in the middle of the lines instead of on the line it would make them pretty useless to me in my circumstances. I would have to ignore them and keep an eye on the location of the lines. I had decided I could adapt to them pretty easily as long as I put my head on when I pick up the bass but now I'm wondering (and trying to picture it) if the unlined would work better for me. Right now I'm not sure but if I was to modify it would be easier to change the dots than add some lines. Whatever the case I'd need to make up my mind quick because the order window will be closing in a day or two.

What I would like to have............?

 

[movielvr]

great responses from all, Thanks!