Dr Stankface
Well-known member
shamus63 said:
You ain't never lied.
Andrew
- Thread starter Tajue17
- Start date
You ain't never lied.
Andrew
Dr Stankface
Well-known member
Aussie Mark said:
I've never had to turn my 1001RB up over 8:30 for a gig. So much power that I don't need.
Andrew
I'm not a young kid in a punk band and also wasn't really over driving the cab, our studio volume isn't loud at all. the cab is 6yrs old and has been banged around alot touring so maybe I should'nt of bought the cheapest ampeg cab SVT-15EN in the store.
the cab worked fine the last nite I used it and then plugged in the next nite and nothing? my amp is very powerful but only if you Bi-Amp it which I don't do I just go from the speaker outs which only produce about 500watts total, then my master and gain are at 12 o'clock. with everything else basicly flat and I then EQ from the bass ( Highs @ 6, mids @ 9, Bass @ 9 --> 5 is flat)
okay so onto the replacement speaker or replacement cab.. I like big sound so should I upgrade to a full single like the Ampeg 2X15 or 8x10 or go with the Mesabookie Powerhouse 1000 orrrrrrr just replace the speaker and stil run the two cabs and if so I only know of Carvin speakers which they do have a heavy 600wt 15" for $110.00.. (don't want an ampeg speaker for this cab again)
we don't really use a ton of volume but I like the big cabs because they have that "Wall of sound" coming from the stage and not something thats loud enough but you can hear it coming up from the floor behind you..
I was told by many people here in the past that the ampeg stuff would give me problems sooner or later!
the cab worked fine the last nite I used it and then plugged in the next nite and nothing? my amp is very powerful but only if you Bi-Amp it which I don't do I just go from the speaker outs which only produce about 500watts total, then my master and gain are at 12 o'clock. with everything else basicly flat and I then EQ from the bass ( Highs @ 6, mids @ 9, Bass @ 9 --> 5 is flat)
okay so onto the replacement speaker or replacement cab.. I like big sound so should I upgrade to a full single like the Ampeg 2X15 or 8x10 or go with the Mesabookie Powerhouse 1000 orrrrrrr just replace the speaker and stil run the two cabs and if so I only know of Carvin speakers which they do have a heavy 600wt 15" for $110.00.. (don't want an ampeg speaker for this cab again)
we don't really use a ton of volume but I like the big cabs because they have that "Wall of sound" coming from the stage and not something thats loud enough but you can hear it coming up from the floor behind you..
I was told by many people here in the past that the ampeg stuff would give me problems sooner or later!
Aussie Mark
Well-known member
Tajue17 said:
Eminence are probably the best all-round option for replacement speakers. Many manufacturers use Eminence as OEM.
BigBallz
Well-known member
Aussie Mark said:
Eminence are Ampeg's original speakers. The 15 Tajue17 blew was a 200 watt, rms speaker. Eminence has other wattage ratings for their 15's.
http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/products02/speakpro/main15sppro.htm
Tajue17, go to the above link, and do some research. I'm sure you can find what you are looking for.
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You probably already tried it with another speaker cabe didn't you.
I once "lost" a speaker because the core of the cable wore down to almost nothing with regular gigging abuse, and one day, the speaker just stopped working. I use monster cable now .. the stuff for top-end hi-fis and it works all the time ...
Another one gor "bounced" once too often, and just stopped working.
I don'r expect either of these to be the problem in your case, but I thought I'd add a couple more of those .. "What to look for if your cab goes silent"pointers to an already very interesting thread.
I once "lost" a speaker because the core of the cable wore down to almost nothing with regular gigging abuse, and one day, the speaker just stopped working. I use monster cable now .. the stuff for top-end hi-fis and it works all the time ...
Another one gor "bounced" once too often, and just stopped working.
I don'r expect either of these to be the problem in your case, but I thought I'd add a couple more of those .. "What to look for if your cab goes silent"pointers to an already very interesting thread.
BigBallz
Well-known member
Tajue17 said:
Well, I went to your site and listened to your band. Good band, I might add and you play with "Volume". Good, crisp rock. So, if you were using the Ampeg B4R, were you in "Monobridged Mode"? Into your two cabinets @ 4ohms combined, that would give you 1000 watts output. More than enough to blow a 200 watt 15. You would split that power between the two cabinets, 500 to each. Bye, Bye 15. If you were just using the amp in "normal mode"....that would be about 340 watts rms into 4 ohms, split between two cabinets, 170 watts per. That would be suffecient power for medium level playing.
So, how were you running the amp? Second thing I noticed, your playing an active bass,(higher output) and your amp levels are flat. 12 on input, 12 on master, lots of bass eq. from bass. That's loud if you are playing monobridged.
And if you are playing regular output, 340 watts...not loud. Bottom line...the 15 just met it's fate...sorry you have to go through this...it can be a bummer.
strummer
Enormous Member
strummer said:
Ok, I'm quoting myself, so sue me.
I don't want to come off as an a*shole, but the square wave speaker killer myth just has to die!
Having read this thread someone might think that a square wave in itself will hurt a speaker. It will not, and it does not matter if it is a tweeter or a midrange. The only reason square waves hurt speakers is beacuse a square wave has exactly double the wattage compared to a sine of the same amplitude.
This is also the reason for the rule of thumb mentioned by Aussie Mark.
The RMS rating of a speaker does not mean that as epeaker can handle let's say 250 w continously for a whole day. It means that with music, like bass, it will survive a clean signal from an amp putting out 250 w. It will not survive a bass played through a wildly clipping 250 w amp, simply because that amp (apart from sounding like sh*t) also should be considered a 500 W amp.
I hope I haven't offended anyone with this post. I think it's important that we don't see things as truth just because we hear them so often, and the fact is that the wave form in itself has nothing to do with the well being of the speakers. Power has, though.
thanks for the compliment on my band, I run my head and cabs in Normal Mode and we play in a small 12X10 room so i never need to come close to even pushing it.
at sound reinforced Venues I run the exact same levels but may tweak up on the gain paying close attention to the clip led where I don't want to see it at all. I play with one guitar who has a 80watt randall and 4X12 so again pushing my stuff is not required, i think it was just some freak thing that happened. also, I took the speaker out and put my home stereo wires on it and theres no sound.
what do you guys think about the Carvin speakers, I heard they are Thiele's and pretty decent.
at sound reinforced Venues I run the exact same levels but may tweak up on the gain paying close attention to the clip led where I don't want to see it at all. I play with one guitar who has a 80watt randall and 4X12 so again pushing my stuff is not required, i think it was just some freak thing that happened. also, I took the speaker out and put my home stereo wires on it and theres no sound.
what do you guys think about the Carvin speakers, I heard they are Thiele's and pretty decent.
BigBallz
Well-known member
"Why is clipping bad for speakers? There are several major reasons why speakers driven by an amplifier operating in clipping can be bad: signal compression and more energy being generated in the high frequency range (due to increased harmonic distortion).
Anyone who has ever looked at a music signal on an oscilloscope knows that the signal is rapidly changing (meaning that it has periods of large amplitude, then low, etc). This signal, when applied to a speaker, of course generates sound, but it also generates heat in the speaker's voice coil. The voice coil gets hot during the loud passages of music, but has time to cool down somewhat during the softer passages. The louder the music is played, the hotter the speaker's voice coil will become. If it becomes too hot, the speaker can fail (due to the voice coil melting or burning). Basically what we are saying here is that if the music signal is such that the speaker's voice coil cannot maintain a safe temperature, the speaker is at risk of failure. So why does clipping exacerbate this situation?
When an amplifier is driven into clipping, the average level of the music signal increases. During clipping, the loud parts of the music have already exceeded what the amplifier can output cleanly, but the softer parts have not. However, the softer parts have become louder, and the key point here is that by operating the amplifier in a clipping condition we have made the difference between the loud and soft passages of the music less. Basically, we have "compressed" the signal (and such signals put more of a strain on a speaker). The result is that the speaker's voice coil cannot cool off (as much) between passages of loud and soft music.
When an amplifier is driven into extreme clipping, the amplifier will put out significantly more power than its RMS wattage rating (assuming the amp has a decent power supply). How can this be? Recall (from discussions above) that for an amplifier to put out (for example) 100 watts with a sine wave signal, its power supply voltage rails must be higher than that necessary to generate 100 watts if a pure DC voltage was used. When an amplifier is driven into extreme clipping, the signal will look approximately like a "square wave". The power output resulting from a square wave signal is twice that for a sine wave (assuming that the peak value of the sine wave is the same as the value of the rail voltage when the square wave is being generated, as would be the case for a high quality amplifier). In most real world amplifiers the power supply will not be able to handle putting out twice the rated power, and in actuality the power delivered during extreme clipping will not be twice the rated power of the amplifier. However, the output will likely be substantially more than the rated output (perhaps by 50% or more)! So, even with real world amplifiers, extreme clipping can ultimately send a lot more power to a speaker than you might otherwise expect. Adding to the problem, this kind of output is continuous power (it gives the speaker's voice coil no chance to cool down because there are no soft passages in music that is extremely clipped)."
http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/powerart_a.htm
Please go to link for reference.
Anyone who has ever looked at a music signal on an oscilloscope knows that the signal is rapidly changing (meaning that it has periods of large amplitude, then low, etc). This signal, when applied to a speaker, of course generates sound, but it also generates heat in the speaker's voice coil. The voice coil gets hot during the loud passages of music, but has time to cool down somewhat during the softer passages. The louder the music is played, the hotter the speaker's voice coil will become. If it becomes too hot, the speaker can fail (due to the voice coil melting or burning). Basically what we are saying here is that if the music signal is such that the speaker's voice coil cannot maintain a safe temperature, the speaker is at risk of failure. So why does clipping exacerbate this situation?
When an amplifier is driven into clipping, the average level of the music signal increases. During clipping, the loud parts of the music have already exceeded what the amplifier can output cleanly, but the softer parts have not. However, the softer parts have become louder, and the key point here is that by operating the amplifier in a clipping condition we have made the difference between the loud and soft passages of the music less. Basically, we have "compressed" the signal (and such signals put more of a strain on a speaker). The result is that the speaker's voice coil cannot cool off (as much) between passages of loud and soft music.
When an amplifier is driven into extreme clipping, the amplifier will put out significantly more power than its RMS wattage rating (assuming the amp has a decent power supply). How can this be? Recall (from discussions above) that for an amplifier to put out (for example) 100 watts with a sine wave signal, its power supply voltage rails must be higher than that necessary to generate 100 watts if a pure DC voltage was used. When an amplifier is driven into extreme clipping, the signal will look approximately like a "square wave". The power output resulting from a square wave signal is twice that for a sine wave (assuming that the peak value of the sine wave is the same as the value of the rail voltage when the square wave is being generated, as would be the case for a high quality amplifier). In most real world amplifiers the power supply will not be able to handle putting out twice the rated power, and in actuality the power delivered during extreme clipping will not be twice the rated power of the amplifier. However, the output will likely be substantially more than the rated output (perhaps by 50% or more)! So, even with real world amplifiers, extreme clipping can ultimately send a lot more power to a speaker than you might otherwise expect. Adding to the problem, this kind of output is continuous power (it gives the speaker's voice coil no chance to cool down because there are no soft passages in music that is extremely clipped)."
http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/powerart_a.htm
Please go to link for reference.
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AnthonyD
Well-known member
<--- Loving the education!
shamus63
Well-known member
Aussie Mark said:
No, they're each rated 200w @ 8ohms; 400w @ 4ohms for the pair.
maddog
Well-known member
Total silence form the cab has me guessing a loose connection. Have you popped open the box and checked everything over?
Most woofers that I've seen toasted could still play, just at a reduced volume. Also, there was usually a scratchiness associated with the movement of the cone (from melted stuff rubbing). So, unless there is a complete short, there should be enough current in the magnet gap to do something. Any large resistance or scratching sounds when you move the cone by hand? Gentle but firm pressure is all that should be needed.
Also, check the VC leads. They usually start from the input tabs/posts and go to the back of the cone. Do they look charred?
Also, BB suggested replacing the drivers. Good advice since it is a cheaper solution but I'm adding a caveat that may be unwarranted. I'm not sure how scientific bass cabinet manufacturers are but you probably need to match the T/S parameters. If not, the cabinet air volume won't load the woofer correctly and things won't sound right or the power handling will be reduced. If anybody is aware of cabinet company's design practices and can correct/affirm what I just wrote please chime in.
Edit: I just checked Eminence's web site and they list recommended enclosure volumes. This should do well enough but you can take it a step further since they have the T/S parameters listed.
Edit2: I went back and reread Tajue's original post. Some of this info is a bit redundant. Take what gems (if any) you get out of it and ignore what seems duplicated.
Most woofers that I've seen toasted could still play, just at a reduced volume. Also, there was usually a scratchiness associated with the movement of the cone (from melted stuff rubbing). So, unless there is a complete short, there should be enough current in the magnet gap to do something. Any large resistance or scratching sounds when you move the cone by hand? Gentle but firm pressure is all that should be needed.
Also, check the VC leads. They usually start from the input tabs/posts and go to the back of the cone. Do they look charred?
Also, BB suggested replacing the drivers. Good advice since it is a cheaper solution but I'm adding a caveat that may be unwarranted. I'm not sure how scientific bass cabinet manufacturers are but you probably need to match the T/S parameters. If not, the cabinet air volume won't load the woofer correctly and things won't sound right or the power handling will be reduced. If anybody is aware of cabinet company's design practices and can correct/affirm what I just wrote please chime in.
Edit: I just checked Eminence's web site and they list recommended enclosure volumes. This should do well enough but you can take it a step further since they have the T/S parameters listed.
Edit2: I went back and reread Tajue's original post. Some of this info is a bit redundant. Take what gems (if any) you get out of it and ignore what seems duplicated.
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BigBallz
Well-known member
"The RMS rating of a speaker does not mean that as epeaker can handle let's say 250 w continously for a whole day. It means that with music, like bass, it will survive a clean signal from an amp putting out 250 w. It will not survive a bass played through a wildly clipping 250 w amp, simply because that amp (apart from sounding like sh*t) also should be considered a 500 W amp."
Let's take this another step further....since "watts" are a measurement of dissapated heat ( commonly refered to as power), lets use the above example as our 250 watt speaker. This time lets drive it with a 100 watt amp. Now lets clip this 100 watt amp into real world ratings of 150 watts of CLIPPED output. Now that speaker should handle that power right? No, that speaker would eventualy fail because the signal being applied, is so distorted, (clipped) that it will cause excessive heat transfer to the voice coil causing premature failure. This could happen in an hour...or a month or a year, depending on ussage.
Let's take this another step further....since "watts" are a measurement of dissapated heat ( commonly refered to as power), lets use the above example as our 250 watt speaker. This time lets drive it with a 100 watt amp. Now lets clip this 100 watt amp into real world ratings of 150 watts of CLIPPED output. Now that speaker should handle that power right? No, that speaker would eventualy fail because the signal being applied, is so distorted, (clipped) that it will cause excessive heat transfer to the voice coil causing premature failure. This could happen in an hour...or a month or a year, depending on ussage.
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BigBallz
Well-known member
maddog said:
Good point maddog, since the bottom in question I believe is ported.
maddog
Well-known member
BigBallz said:
If it is ported, things get a little tougher on replacing the speaker. A recone using an OEM kit would be an easier option (as suggestd by strummer).
Also, when you pulled the plate, was there a noticeable burnt smell?
shamus63
Well-known member
I don't know if we've resolved Taj's speaker problem yet, but I've come up with my own rig game plan based on all the info given here ~ as well as my budget:
Gallien-Krueger 1001RB-II amp (700w @ 4ohms) run through my existing GK Backliine Series cabs (400w @ 4ohms total RMS). Later, when I have the extra cash, I'll upgrade the cabs to the RBH Series.
The B2R will stay home for practice and recordings.
Now, I can stop tossing and turning at night.
Gallien-Krueger 1001RB-II amp (700w @ 4ohms) run through my existing GK Backliine Series cabs (400w @ 4ohms total RMS). Later, when I have the extra cash, I'll upgrade the cabs to the RBH Series.
The B2R will stay home for practice and recordings.
Now, I can stop tossing and turning at night.
Nope no burnt smell and as far as I can see with a flashlight (I have the speaker out now) the wires from the male prongs on the back of the speaker basket go into the cone and are fine, I gently oulled on each one and they are attached to something in there but thats all I can see. this dogs beat enough so I'm just going to get a new speaker for now.
thanks for the education guys.. Taj
thanks for the education guys.. Taj
Not trying to yank anyone's chain, but it is my experience that any speaker enclosure of Carvin's I've ever heard was underwhelming at best. I was in a band for six years that had a comletely Carvin PA; subs, mains, amps, monitors, and all. It was right lousy and thin sounding no matter how we tried to tweak it. We had plenty of watts, too. Go with Eminence.
shamus63
Well-known member
My thoughts on Carvin are about even with Ben's ~ just too 'generic' sounding for me...no real personality of its own. Plenty of wattage, IMO, just no real soul to it.
Of course, maybe Carvins are meant to be transparent.
And again, IMHO.
Of course, maybe Carvins are meant to be transparent.
And again, IMHO.
