Help! HT 5, Rebel 20, 1 X 12 or 2 X 12 cab ...?

[PaoloGilberto]

hi guys,

I spent the last 3 weeks searching a good small tube amp for home use exclusively (at least now).
so the final list is: Blackstar HT 5 or Egnater Rebel 20
+ 1 x 12 Cab OR 2 x 12 cab (closed or open back I can't decide - pls help), below are the options:
for 1 X 12
BLACKSTAR HTV-112 - U.K. International Cyberstore (I think this has 70-80 Celestion)
BLACKHEART BH112 LITTLE GIANT CAB - U.K. International Cyberstore

for 2 X 12 cab
HARLEY BENTON G212 VINTAGE - U.K. International Cyberstore
FRAMUS FR212 CB - U.K. International Cyberstore
BLACKSTAR HT-212 CABINET - U.K. International Cyberstore
LANEY GS212IE - U.K. International Cyberstore

I had the opportunity to play the HT5 stack, is a very nice amp for low volumes, but I would say that the tone is not so sweet as you would expect from a tube amp, the distortion seems a little artificial and with buzz/fuzz
Egnater Rebel 20 seems very very impressive amp from youtube clips (no chance to try it ), our colleague vaisatchatrucci helped me a lot to better understand it , and I would honestly choose it , but I am concerned that it will not sound ok at low volume as I need (the HT 5 is loud for practice even with vol on 10 o'clock) and the Rebel does not have enough gain for me , although has a more sweeter and full bodied sound/tone.
I have a JP6 with D sonic and I like to have a good clean for blues /jazz but mandatory an aggressive distortion (mesa , marshall like) similar with Metallica, Pantera, Dream ....and I know is to much to ask from a small amp, but...

any help here guys?what amp is more suitable for low home vol, what cab?

I would really appreciate it
Paul

 

[Hendog]

I also am interested in a new 1x12 or 2x12.

I was looking at Avatar, Port City, Mesa...

 

[sandmannn69]

hi guys,

I spent the last 3 weeks searching a good small tube amp for home use exclusively (at least now).
so the final list is: Blackstar HT 5 or Egnater Rebel 20
+ 1 x 12 Cab OR 2 x 12 cab (closed or open back I can't decide - pls help), below are the options:
for 1 X 12
BLACKSTAR HTV-112 - U.K. International Cyberstore (I think this has 70-80 Celestion)
BLACKHEART BH112 LITTLE GIANT CAB - U.K. International Cyberstore

for 2 X 12 cab
HARLEY BENTON G212 VINTAGE - U.K. International Cyberstore
FRAMUS FR212 CB - U.K. International Cyberstore
BLACKSTAR HT-212 CABINET - U.K. International Cyberstore
LANEY GS212IE - U.K. International Cyberstore

I had the opportunity to play the HT5 stack, is a very nice amp for low volumes, but I would say that the tone is not so sweet as you would expect from a tube amp, the distortion seems a little artificial and with buzz/fuzz
Egnater Rebel 20 seems very very impressive amp from youtube clips (no chance to try it ), our colleague vaisatchatrucci helped me a lot to better understand it , and I would honestly choose it , but I am concerned that it will not sound ok at low volume as I need (the HT 5 is loud for practice even with vol on 10 o'clock) and the Rebel does not have enough gain for me , although has a more sweeter and full bodied sound/tone.
I have a JP6 with D sonic and I like to have a good clean for blues /jazz but mandatory an aggressive distortion (mesa , marshall like) similar with Metallica, Pantera, Dream ....and I know is to much to ask from a small amp, but...

any help here guys?what amp is more suitable for low home vol, what cab?

I would really appreciate it
Paul

Tube amps are too loud for home use, even low wattage tube amps. For home use exclusively, you're better off with a Line 6 modeler, like the Toneport GX, or Pod XT stuff. If you have to have a tube amp, the Marshall JVM sounds pretty good at low volumes as well as playing out. I had a Blackstar HT5 head, and while they're cool little amps, there is a lot of digital circuitry in the signal path unlike the JVM, which is all-tube. And for the best sound, you still need to crank up the HT5, and then you hear that buzz/fuzz you mentioned. As far as cabs, a 1x12 with your favorite speaker is best for low volume (more speakers=more volume), 1x10 little quieter. Played a Rebel 20, too, but sounded pretty generic compared to the Blackstar. Also, there is the Epiphone Valve Junior heads which are great for modding and making better amps out of, but still sound best turned up. Your best bet with a tube amp is something like a Blackstar or Valve Jr. with your favorite OD in front, so you can get the distortion at low, bedroom volumes or use a Weber MASS attenuator between the amp and the speaker cabinet to soak up some of the volume. The Mini-MASS I have works good with low-power/<15W amps without sucking too much of your tone. Use it with my Marshall 18W clone and Plexi SE 8W head, both converted from Epiphone Valve Jr. heads.

 

[Progdude]

A bit over a year ago I was looking for a low watt tube amp. I was sick of having neighbors ask me to turn it down. So an amp that had variable watts was ideal. My fear was that since I really like both the EL34/EL84s as well as the 6L6s/6V6s Id end up having to looking for 2 amps instead of one. So after hearing about the Egnater Rebel 20 I had to check it out. So after checking it out, I was sold. I love it! I run it at lots of different settings and with other overdrive pedals and effects as well as cabs. It always responds really really well. Killer tones ranging from bell clean single coil tones to scooped metal tones. Its always inspiring to play.
The fact that I can get a tube amp down to 1 watt and run it thru a 212 or 412 cab and have it be whisper quiet and actually have a GOOD tone coming from it is amazing!


I totally recommend it!

 

[PaoloGilberto]

thank you for the first 2 answers

Sandmann69: JVM 410 is a fabulous amp, a friend has it, I was very surprised how good an full it sounded at very low bedroom level - but it is 5 X the price of a HT 5. I bought a Toneport UX 1 , but is still in US, when my friend comes to Europe I'll have it. I have to check the price for a power attenuator. so 2 X 12 is too much for low bedroom level practice? I understand though that 2 X 12 cab makes the sound more rich and full...

Progdude :the variable wattage thing it does not reduces the overall volume(is not a power attenuator ), is more of a "headroom" ,sound feel thing (Egnater explained this confusion Welcome to Egnater Amplification).
based only on youtube samples Rebel 20 seems fabulous, but is not for low bedroom volume as I see, and the gain from the amp is more for hard-rock stuff , not metal. maybe that metal tone at low volume is with the pedal in front of it?

any other thought on the subject I will really appreciate

Paul

 

[sandmannn69]

thank you for the first 2 answers

Sandmann69: JVM 410 is a fabulous amp, a friend has it, I was very surprised how good an full it sounded at very low bedroom level - but it is 5 X the price of a HT 5. I bought a Toneport UX 1 , but is still in US, when my friend comes to Europe I'll have it. I have to check the price for a power attenuator. so 2 X 12 is too much for low bedroom level practice? I understand though that 2 X 12 cab makes the sound more rich and full...

Progdude :the variable wattage thing it does not reduces the overall volume(is not a power attenuator ), is more of a "headroom" ,sound feel thing (Egnater explained this confusion Welcome to Egnater Amplification).
based only on youtube samples Rebel 20 seems fabulous, but is not for low bedroom volume as I see, and the gain from the amp is more for hard-rock stuff , not metal. maybe that metal tone at low volume is with the pedal in front of it?

any other thought on the subject I will really appreciate

Paul

Yeah, I had the JVM 410H, it was nice but way too many variations on the same thing (and way too freakin heavy to lug around gigs). Now I'm using the JVM 205H and it's just as good without all the variations (too many modes). And it sounds killer thru a little 1x10 Blackstar cab I originally got with the HT5 for home playing. Got it for less than $1K new at GC, so should be going around $7-800 on the ebay. And you are correct about the attenuator, they aren't really for making a tube amp whisper-quiet, they keep you from getting kicked out of a club when the owner says "turn it down or you'll never play here again". 1 watt on the Rebel is still too loud for most home playing, maybe a 1/4W for talking level-if you're talking all-tube power and not that hybrid situation like in the HT5. As far as sounding rich/full like a 4x12, you basically have to play thru a 4x12 to sound like one. If you're referring to the rich/full sound on records, you gotta remember most of that stuff was multi-tracked, over-processed, and hot-mastered to sound like that, you're just one guitar playing thru a mono amp, dry or with mono effects. That's where the line 6 stuff will work for ya.

 

[PaoloGilberto]

I would pay 700-800 $ for the JVM 250 used, but in Europe everything is way off , all is more expensive comparing to US
rich/full guitar sound unprocessed I was talking about, the JVM tone is one good example
1-2 w may not be to loud for me playing in day time, maybe in the evening will be too loud for neighbors. but at that 1-2 w level I don't know if Rebel's tone shows at least half of the tone is capable of
maybe HT 5 is as you said a tube/hybrid compromise that you can have it at low volume level ...
the Toneport may be a solution, Guitar Rig is is not so bad for home practice, but I can't get a good sound for the piezo through it .
and even on the HT 5 the sound of each note and the feel is significantly different from Guitar Rig. guitar rig may have a better tone when you struck a chord but when you start to play...hmmm is very different from tube amp

 

[sandmannn69]

I would pay 700-800 $ for the JVM 250 used, but in Europe everything is way off , all is more expensive comparing to US
rich/full guitar sound unprocessed I was talking about, the JVM tone is one good example
1-2 w may not be to loud for me playing in day time, maybe in the evening will be too loud for neighbors. but at that 1-2 w level I don't know if Rebel's tone shows at least half of the tone is capable of
maybe HT 5 is as you said a tube/hybrid compromise that you can have it at low volume level ...
the Toneport may be a solution, Guitar Rig is is not so bad for home practice, but I can't get a good sound for the piezo through it .
and even on the HT 5 the sound of each note and the feel is significantly different from Guitar Rig. guitar rig may have a better tone when you struck a chord but when you start to play...hmmm is very different from tube amp

Toneport is a good solution for OD/distortion sounds, I think it is somewhat lacking for good cleans. Can't comment on Guitar Rig/haven't used it. Not to crack on the HT5, it is a nice, versatile amp that's main purpose is studio/home practice and it does it well. I probably shouldn't have cracked it open to see what makes it tick-was dissappointed with all the digital circuitry,
but probably more psychological than audible It still sounds like a tube amp after about 1/2 hour of warm-up.

 

[Jonny Dubai]

I too have the jvm 50w head and love it. But for home use I just use a Korg pandora through some speakers. If I was going to get a home practice amp it would be a Vox valvetronix 15w. You can dial it down to 1w and it has a valve!!

J

 

[beej]

My two cents-

No matter how great the amp is dialed down, it's not going to sound like a cranked amp at a decent playing volume. It's a compromise.

I've got amps with great MVs/attenuators and power scaling, and while they sound great when quiet, it's not really the same as when they're cranked up. Just the nature of the beast.

If it were me, I'd look for something that I could play with a band, so maybe 20-30 W and get a good distortion pedal for home playing. If you need clean headroom and will eventually be playing out, I'd say 30 W, but most of us don't really need 100 W. Then you've got one rig and it works both with a band and at home.

For example, at home I'll typically use the Riot pedal through my little Badger. Sounds killer at low volumes - tons of gain, can get very aggressive - and I can get it very quiet. Sounds great live as well.

Cab wise, there are about a zillion options. For portability it's hard to beat a 1x12. Find something ported (so it's not so directional and sounds bigger) and you're off to the races. A 2x12 is kind of overkill for home playing, but if you'll be gigging with it then it'd be fine. I've done many a gig with my Badger 1x12 and not missed a bigger cabinet.

I'm a bit of a cab whore these days- a 1x12, three 2x12s and a 4x12 taking up too much space, but 99% of the time it's the ported 1x12 or ported 2x12.

 

[PaoloGilberto]

I have the Vox Valvetronix AD 30 VT now and I hate it the distortion tones are really terrible, worst than a solid state cheap amp,but clean is acceptable and even the piezo is sounding ok on the first simulated amp.

so let's get back to the heads and cabs

Beej thanks for your thoughts
Rebel 20 + Riot is a solid option for me but I can't spend that much now...I love the riot pedal though
In terms of gigs an portability honesty I can't see any band activity in the near future :-( I live in a small town (500 000 people) an serious people to have a band are hard to find in my country - hahah
will the 2 X 12 cab have to much bass at low volume?
any delay and reverb good pedals for the small amp?

 

[beej]

Depends on the cab- the oversize 2x12s can have some serious bass response. There's quite a bit of difference between different designs. But for just you playing at home, I don't think you'd have any problems- you can just EQ the bass out from the amp if you find it too much.

It's more of an issue in a band setting, where you're starting to clash with the bass player's range. (We guitarists often forget it's all about the mids in a band context.)

 

[Progdude]

.

Progdude :the variable wattage thing it does not reduces the overall volume(is not a power attenuator ), is more of a "headroom" ,sound feel thing (Egnater explained this confusion Welcome to Egnater Amplification).
based only on youtube samples Rebel 20 seems fabulous, but is not for low bedroom volume as I see, and the gain from the amp is more for hard-rock stuff , not metal. maybe that metal tone at low volume is with the pedal in front of it?

any other thought on the subject I will really appreciate

Paul

Im aware about the watts thing. It does bring it down some. And yes if I use a pedal in front like a Ts9 or a BB preamp or one of my Black Star HT pedals it can get pretty saturated at lower volumes.

 

[Roubster]

Save up for an AxeFX like I am trying to, and then you will be able to do whatever you want at any time hehehe.

 

[sandmannn69]

Depends on the cab- the oversize 2x12s can have some serious bass response. There's quite a bit of difference between different designs. But for just you playing at home, I don't think you'd have any problems- you can just EQ the bass out from the amp if you find it too much.

It's more of an issue in a band setting, where you're starting to clash with the bass player's range. (We guitarists often forget it's all about the mids in a band context.)

Yeah, what sounds rich and full at home (like a scooped mid sound tends to do) will make you disappear when playing with a band. What sounds like honky mids playing at home will sometimes sit just right in a band mix, which is why we like Marshall amps so much. If you're not set on tubes only and want to save a little money, the Roland cube and Vox DA practice amps are very toneful with good modeling, perfect for home or travel. Run on batteries, too.

 

[sandmannn69]

Save up for an AxeFX like I am trying to, and then you will be able to do whatever you want at any time hehehe.

I was looking at the Axefx, too, but it seems like it would be too much tweaking for me and effects overkill. They sound crazy good and supposedly have the touch sensitivity of a tube amp. Give 'em some time to come down in price a bit and I'll bite.

 

[Roubster]

Yea, it has tons of features, but thats not a bad thing. There is one guy you can find on the video section of Fractal Audio site, that did a INSANE demo of what its capable of in every possible style covering tunes from 50s all the way to present. For what it costs, it is actually more cost effective than if you were to get a 3 channel tube amp and bunch of other effects...I was just really impressed by this thing, but havent tried it. I'm all for moving forward with technology, as long as its used for good things...not excess and pointlesness (another topic of materialistic humans living in excess).

 

[PaoloGilberto]

thanks again guys.
beej and sanmann 69 very good point of view about the tone, I am aware of that
Axe FX would be great , but not for the next 2-3 years, to much money
No modeling amp wanted! I have the valvetronix 30 w with power attenuator and I hate this amp for the very very distortion sounds

since this would be my only amp (practice and main rig ...for home -haha, no gigs in the near future) I would like to be a decent one, that's why I thought HT 5 and Rebel would be a decent reasonable choice (any other suggestion is welcomed )

but back to the first questions:
Beej (and all of you too ), the Q is closed back, open back, celestion 70-80 , celestion vintage 30 ?

thx
Paul

 

[Roubster]

Sorry to get off topic with the Axe FX...the only reason is that I am in the same situation as you hehehe. I have been doing reasearch, looking around and thinking what would be the best and quickest solution to my needs. I dont want any Line6 fizz, Peavey transformer buzziness...etc. If I am going to get something great, might as well suck it up and save for something REALLY good rather than spend some of that money on a quick fix which you will maybe not want anymore at a later time due to no versatility, low output, whatever the reason. Thats just my reasoning.

Regarding the speakers, that's completely up to your ears what you like better. I honestly have not had any experience with tons of cabs and speakers, so I would have no idea what would suit MY style. This is why the GAS never ends! Sorry for NOT helping. Just wanted to share my thoughts on this.

 

[beej]

Beej (and all of you too ), the Q is closed back, open back, celestion 70-80 , celestion vintage 30 ?

Don't get too hung up on that, for playing at home it's not going to be the most critical of decisions. The sound of the room you're in will have a bigger impact.

Closed -> more directional (you can't hear it well off-axis), but a little more "thump" when you chug. Not a big deal at home.

Open -> sound coming out the back. You can hear it everywhere since there's sound in all directions. Not as tight, but sometimes better. Typical usage would be for clean sounds.

Ported -> you can tune the response. Makes a small cab sound bigger, and you can hear it off-axis. Good combination of both.

Speaker-wise, it depends what amp and cab you get. Lots of high-gainers like the V30 and it cuts really well in a band situation. I'm more of a greenback guy. I have a 65W "scumback" (repro of a well broken in greenback) in my 1x12 and it's my favourite.

The CL80 is nice too, I like it when mixed with something else. I've got a cab with a CL80 and V30 and it's a good combo.

And that barely scratches the surface. I wouldn't sweat it too much, you'll go mad. Just get a decent amp first. Buy a used cab, save your bucks and if you don't like it later, swap speakers. Again, at home at low volumes it is not going to make a huge difference.