The Stingray is a great live bass, but it SUCKS for recording!

[Eilif]

Steve Smith -- Woot!

Micro, you also hit on a reason why live performances sound better than recorded music. There are other reasons, of course, but the loss of harmonics, etc. is one reason. There is just something "magical" about multiple people playing live together that often (not always) gets lost on a recording.

 

[drTStingray]

OMG - Brian Bennett - we are not worthy, Microbaroms!

Interesting point about people over analysing and trying to create perfect waveforms rather than listening!

Here is a question for you and perhaps Craig also - I may be wrong but I think a lot of the art of top bass players is the feel they create - an important element of which is to do with timing, and the position within the pocket they land the notes - you seem to imply that with modern techniques enable it's easy (maybe too easy) for engineers to move notes to the exact position on the beat (even with my limited experience, I have encountered this and it wound me up because I'd played the notes deliberately the way they were) and engineers may fiddle about and replace notes into the 'correct' position - I'm just wondering how this might interfere with the original music played and idea of the player. I just wonder how some of those Motown tracks would have sounded if this type of alteration was made, for instance to Jamerson's lines - to my ears, the position of the bass notes adds as much to the overall sound as the note choice and timbre of playing.

Pino Palladino is a good current example also - his work with John Mayer creates the most amazing feel IMO - I find myself drawn to this approach (which can be played with good effect on a StingRay) - but it is reliant greatly on note positioning to create a pulse - I guess the engineers must leave his notes in the place he played them!!

 

[Manfloozy]

Pino Palladino is a good current example also - his work with John Mayer creates the most amazing feel IMO - I find myself drawn to this approach (which can be played with good effect on a StingRay) - but it is reliant greatly on note positioning to create a pulse - I guess the engineers must leave his notes in the place he played them!!

Pino's sound/work with the JMT is a fantastic example. He chooses great notes yes, but where and how he places them makes the magic. They also keep things loose which makes the groove so rich and alive... that and Steve Jordan knows how to lay it down with a bit of room for the funk.

 

[drTStingray]

He chooses great notes yes, but where and how he places them makes the magic. They also keep things loose which makes the groove so rich and alive... that and Steve Jordan knows how to lay it down with a bit of room for the funk.

+1 - space and feel is a key ingredient. BTW using the mutes on a 2 band Ray really nails this thumpy funky sound - just the little matter of the skill to choose the best notes and place em in the right place to nail it - not easy IMO!

 

[MadMatt]

Pino's sound/work with the JMT is a fantastic example. He chooses great notes yes, but where and how he places them makes the magic.

+1 I think a doctor thesis could (should!) be written on his note placement.

I dont thing there are many engineers who have enough self esteem to mess with his timing

"I got a woman" from the live album is what I cant get enough of right now. What all three lay down is pure magic.

sorry for the side track.

 

[Microbaroms]

Quote: "Brian Bennett! Interesting point about people over analysing and trying to create perfect waveforms rather than listening!

I may be wrong but I think a lot of the art of top bass players is the feel they create - an important element of which is to do with timing, and the position within the pocket they land the notes.

You seem to imply that with modern techniques enable it's easy (maybe too easy) for engineers to move notes to the exact position on the beat (even with my limited experience, I have encountered this and it wound me up because I'd played the notes deliberately the way they were) and engineers may fiddle about and replace notes into the 'correct' position.

I'm just wondering how this might interfere with the original music played and idea of the player. I just wonder how some of those Motown tracks would have sounded if this type of alteration was made, for instance to Jamerson's lines - to my ears, the position of the bass notes adds as much to the overall sound as the note choice and timbre of playing.

Pino Palladino is a good current example also - his work with John Mayer creates the most amazing feel IMO - I find myself drawn to this approach (which can be played with good effect on a StingRay) - but it is reliant greatly on note positioning to create a pulse - I guess the engineers must leave his notes in the place he played them!!


Quote: "Pino's sound/work with the JMT is a fantastic example. He chooses great notes yes, but where and how he places them makes the magic. They also keep things loose which makes the groove so rich and alive... that and Steve Jordan knows how to lay it down with a bit of room for the funk.


Quote: "+1 - space and feel is a key ingredient. BTW using the mutes on a 2 band Ray really nails this thumpy funky sound - just the little matter of the skill to choose the best notes and place em in the right place to nail it - not easy IMO!"


Quote: " +1 I think a doctor thesis could (should!) be written on his note placement. I don't thing there are many engineers who have enough self esteem to mess with his timing."

"I got a woman" from the live album is what I can't get enough of right now. What all three lay down is pure magic. sorry for the side track."



Not at all.

All very excellent points, made above.

I was listening to some quite extreme timing and note placement, the other day on Recordings made by a Neighbour.

It was the sparseness, creating tension as things didn't automatically fall in to the places you thought they would, when the notes did finally land, they were unusually creatively chosen and quite perfectly placed.

What came to my mind as I listened, was something that Sir George Martin, (who lives in a nearby Town and comes here regularly to Conduct at Charity Events, as I myself do) said about one of The Beatles Recordings.

He had put just a snare beat, all on its own on one Track. I remember him stressing how "Brave" you have to be, to do that. Nobody had ever thought of doing that before, but it was perfect, perhaps the complete opposite of what might commonly be expected, and I was thinking, maybe that's a Characteristic Hallmark of some these truly great Bass Players. Forming tension with Silence, surprise with placement and absolute delight with note choice.


Some of the Great Session Players are just so amazing, and have taken The Bass to another level of creative brilliance. Perhaps this is one reason Big Poppa has had to keep working so hard, creating brand new Instruments with Wider Compasses and extended features. Earlier someone mentioned Tony Levin, I think he's a case in point. Happily my Facility is adjacent to the Home and Recording Studio of one of the most successful U.K. Artists and there is a continual dribble of Top Session Players here.

This particular Artist is a big pal of Peter Gabriel (who owns Solid State Logic based a few miles down the road where they Design and Manufacture the Recording Consoles Solid State Logic which is pretty handy).

And certainly Tony Levin has played with them on Various Recordings that they have made.



Just on the point of Silence.

Many years ago I had to create the Orchestrations for a Big Musical, which involve Film. In one epic number, the piece built and built and built till it was FFFF and really couldn't get any louder. But still, I needed to built the piece further, driving it upward into a Musical Climax.

My solution, was to utilise "Silence" where you would "expect a sound" with a positive downbeat. And I interspersed that "Silence" with a "Pounding Barrage of Fortissimo Orchestra" between the "Alternating Silences".

This strategy created enough additional moments of extra tension, to push the "Impact of the Sound" to an even Greater Musical Climax and Finale than would have otherwise been possible.


The point is.

In regard to Bass Playing, (you will appreciate I normally hire Bass Players).

To my Ears, the most Imaginatively Creative Ones today, seem at times to be using 'Silence' much more powerfully than ever before, along with the closely related timing, placement and note choice.

And I think it's worth stressing, the heart of it is that the 'SPACE' around Notes, is as vitally important as the length and choice of notes themselves. It not only provides the framework in which the notes exist, and have their life and being, but also can be used very creatively, allowing other elements, like the Artist and Emotion of the Song to be foremost themselves, and also, creating the effect of emphasis.

A Great Session Player serves the needs of the Song, but also provides the support that allows The Artist to be the Star.



Quote: " live performances sound better than recorded music. There are other reasons, of course, but the loss of harmonics, etc. is one reason. There is just something "magical" about multiple people playing live together that often (not always) gets lost on a recording."



Quite.

I call it 'Vibe'.

However, a Conductor, from Harvard University, writing a book on Conducting who analyzed all the individual components that contribute to the makeup of Musical Sound, concluded that when all the individual components required are perfectly present in their correct proportions, a wonderfully mystic addition effect is added, that he had no proper term for.

So he called it 'Impressiveness'.


But to me.

It is the presence of a creative spark.

That first ignited the mind and playing of the original Composer.

And without that, everything you sing, play listen to and hear has a 'second hand glow'.

Most people of experience feel that A Group of Musicians playing together simultaneously is a great bonus.

I understand from people involved, the Motown Session Players all played together in a pit room, at least the ones in Detroit, before they gained a Facility in L.A. Although the Players were also together in a room for many of the earlier L.A. Hits too.

This type of Musician placing in one form or another was very common once, and actually applies to most, probably Historically Great Studios, and certainly prior to "absolute isolation" becoming the taste of the Industry.

Acoustic Isolation has great benefits, but also has a big down side too.

As I wrote, the place of Strength is also the place of Weakness.

Basically, Isolation makes things easier for Engineers.



Have a look at this courtesy of David Reitzas.

Watch all the way through as David takes you to the various Iso Booths.



Al Schmitt (who was actually the first person ever to Record with a separate Mic on the Bass Drum) has been over here with Steve Gadd Recording a new Album with Mr. Eric Clapton, so you can bet that there's plenty of acoustical bleed and a lot of Old School Expertise on that Recording. Steve Gadd was over at my neighbours place, Recording as well. He looks well.

Years ago, when Frank Sinatra Recorded "New York, New York", they built an air conditioned Iso booth in the centre of the Live Room to put him in to Sing. He cracked up vocally in it, and so, he made them give him a hand held Mic, and then stood in front of the Band and Sang his Heart Out.

You need a lot of wisdom and experience to know what and when to use an Iso Booth and when not to.

In the examples below Studios A and B have a Removable Dividing Wall that opens into a Larger Room to accommodate Large Ensembles.

http://www.capitolstudios.com/pdfs/studio_a.pdf

http://www.capitolstudios.com/pdfs/studio_b.pdf

But it gives a good idea of layouts.

And Iso Booths.


Again, years ago, few people utilized Headphones.

Musicians hearing each other, and themselves directly, with both ears, is another plus many of the very experienced Professionals who have been used to Recording utilising both ways, seem to feel.

To me though, once gain it is a case of "Strength" and "Weakness", and what needs must for a practical solution to a Recording Problem. So let me give you an example of a "Strength" I doubt anyone else has thought of.



To my knowledge.

Session Drummer Bobby Graham pictured earlier (who was the equivalent to the U.K. Music Scene, of what Hal Blaine was to the American Music Scene in the same period), was the first Drummer ever to request cans for a Studio Recording.

So if you you've heard John Barry's original "The James Bond Theme", The Kinks "You Really Got Me", Pet Clarks, "Downtown", Dusty Springfield's "You Don't Have To Say You Love Me" and a multitude of Chart Hits etc. Then you will have heard Bobby playing the Drums.

Top Producer Shel Talmy wrote of Graham, "For me Bobby Graham was the greatest drummer the UK has ever produced." Hal Blaine wrote, "During the late fifties I came to Hollywood and started making a name for myself in the recording industry, little did I know that I had a counterpart across the big pond in Merrie Olde England ... his name? Bobby Graham. I had heard his name many times and had listened to the great hit records of the day that Bobby had worked on but had never met him, although our careers have run in parallel ever since those formative days of Rock and Roll."

A little known fact, is that Brian Epstein offered Bobby the position of becoming The Beatles Drummer when he played at the Cavern Club, before they became famous.

He turned the position down.




What was interesting to me in regard to Bobby's Headphone use.

Is the very positive manner in which he made them work for him. And I'd like you to think about this quite a bit to get the idea here.

Not being a tremendous Reader of Notation, but having a quite wonderful instinctive 'feel', and Recording with very large Ensembles of Musicians, (Think of all the huge Musical Arrangements of Tony Hatch Hits of the Sixties), he would use the cans, with just the Vocalist and a little Piano in his ears.

What this enabled him to do, was to lock very closely into the performance and delivery of the Vocalist, properly understand and musically interpret the emotive meaning of the Song, and very importantly, provide a Kick in or Fills etc. whenever the Vocalist took a breath, or there was a break at the end of a line, complimenting the Musical Arrangement.

He would also trim his Rhythmic Interpretation of the piece to the melodic line of the Vocal. For instance, in a sparse opening section mainly supported by Piano, if you listen to Pet Clarks 'Downtown' you can hear the Hi Hat tapping out the exact same note values of the Vocals line. He's interpreting what he's hearing.

In such days, Kicking in or Fills, with just a Snare and a couple of Toms Tom's meant the 'relative pitch' between the various Instruments that made up a Drum Kit was very wide, so even a quite Short Fill, was a Real Musical Statement, with Strong Tonal Contrast.

The Fill was Emphatic!



It's just a personal view.

But when I've shared it with Recording Professionals it's amazing how many totally agree, and say they can't understand, why no one has said this before.

Today, there are many great Drummers, with a huge array of Tom Toms who, as much as I truly love them and admire their playing, seem to feel the need to use every one, or at least most of them, whenever they have the opportunity for a Fill.

But often in Chart Hit Music, there is not sufficient time and space, for that sheer amount of Tom Tom Drums, and the quite marginal differences in pitch between so many Tom Toms although clearly discernable to Musicians, does not 'sonically impress' itself in the same way upon the 'massed public' at large, and means whatever Musical Statement is made, is Less Emphatic and Less Contrasting Tonally.

I trust you can see that, though undoubtedly many Musicians would disagree.


So here you have it.

Hit Music is not about Musician's Technique per say, that's the mind set of Musician's who know how hard it is to perform such disciplines, and the real truth is, everyday people do not think like that.

Hit Session Music that creates No1 Hits is about "Connecting Emotively" with ordinary people, at a deep level, with great immediacy capturing their attention.



But the biggest problem of all is this.

Having such wide Fills, can easily "Cut Across" the pickup of the Vocal line, effect the delivery and performance of the Singer, effectively "Choking the Vocalist" line off.

Today Drums are usually quite high in the Mix, and during a Fill you want to bring them out more, but if doing so, impedes the Vocalists line, then you are forced to compromise the ideal balance and quality of the Mix, it's what I meant when I wrote earlier that "In a Recording Studio, Less is More."



And somewhere in all this, Bassists are expected to deliver a consistently Solid Foundation and be Brilliantly Creative and Interesting to boot.

So, good Hit Session Drummers like Steve Gadd and others, are considered a Song Writers Dream, because they give a Track just what it needs, in a clear but creatively interesting manner, but no more, and no less.

And one of the things they do, is to 'Create Space' within their Rhythmic Patterns for the Bass to shine through.

We are beyond Pulsation, Bass Patterns, Soloing and into another new field.

And the Drummer has to symbiotically create the right conditions.
For all this to work in a way that is Ideal.



With regard to Harmonic content being part of the difference between Live and Recorded Sound.

We should ask is the bandwidth limitations on Recordings another part of the story?

There's life above 20 kilohertz! A survey of musical instrument spectra to 102.4 kHz

So here we see that Musical Instruments have far more Harmonics reaching far further than anyone could imagine.

Interesting I trust?



However.

I'ts important to realise.

Recordings are necessarily bandwidth limited.

Inter-Modulation Distortion becomes a problem (which you wouldn't like the sound of) if you widen the frequency range too much.

Would widening the available bandwidth bring about an improvement in realism? Throughout the History or Recording it is the case that whenever the bandwidth has been widened, it has resulted in an appreciable improvement in sound.

But I think there is a Trade Off at some point, the limits of which Audio Designers and Recording Professionals are keenly aware of.


Sample Rates?

Time Smear?

Filters?

Jitter?


All these things have been huge problem.

That clearly differentiated Recorded from Live Sound.

But have improved gradually as Digital Recording has slowly Matured.

But do remember whenever you process sound, you add digital Word Length, so when you Mix down or Process further, there will eventually be a Truncation of that Word Length.

Possibly many Truncations, depending on how much additional Processing you do. Reverb tails may even change or disappear etc.

These are all reasons to get the 'Sound' you want, before it ever enters the Mic, and avoid any additional processing that you can.

All these other elements, slightly effect the overall sound, and together, can contribute to that big difference you hear.

But if you capture what you really want right at the beginning.

You place your Recording in a Higher Order.

Than most people's will enjoy.



Quote: "I think a lot of the art of top bass players is the feel they create".


Perfectly put.

And Top Drummer's too.

I mention this, because the close relationship between Bassist and Drummer, is an absolutely crucial one.

Of course, Bass and Drums in the best instances do bring "Rhythmic Feel", that provides the Foundation for the rest of the Music that's being created.

Its Foundational, so I hope it's been o.k. to talk about Drummers and indeed other Rhythm Instruments like guitar on a Bass Forum, for Bassist's need to be greatly aware of the importance of Their Relationship to these Instruments, and that isn't something I have really detected that gets talked about.

In my experience, in many instances the Best Session Bassist's and Drummers in particular, and sometimes Guitarists have not always been great Notation Readers, although some situations and Musical Arrangements do require it.

Most Bassists, Drummer's and Guitarist I have noticed pick up a lot on Reading as they go along, some are good at both, but what is of absolutely overwhelming importance, as the poster rightly wrote above, is the 'Feel' they bring, that provides the Foundation, Backbone, and Rhythmic Life that everything else usually hangs on.


But this aspect of 'Feel' also applies to other Players.

In regard to this, 'Little Jim' for instance, was a particularly poor Reader at first as a Session Player, but he had a "Fantastic Feel and Creativity", and once he heard the initial run through, could make up very complimentary Musical lines quite easily.

Working closely with "Big Jim" then, as shown in my picture earlier with Bob and Gus, worked very well indeed on Sessions because Big Jim was a better Reader, good at Pop and Country where a Scored Arrangement was more likely anyway, whilst "Little Jim" was instinctively bold, in his comfort zone with Rock and Blues where he was happy to work off Chord Charts, if anything at all.

They would thus swap Lead and Rhythm Roles according to the Session, having no idea what the Music or Artist would be until they arrived. Usually the 'Session Fixer' would not disclose such details so Session Musicians could not pick and choose what jobs they did. If you pressed them for details, you would be 'dropped' for a few weeks, so you learnt not to ask.

Perhaps I should explain, although Recording Sessions necessarily involved differing Instrumentation, Line Up, and Personnel. There were during periods and eras of time, in which certain Groups of Musicians, worked together on Recording Sessions with tremendous regularity.

In the U.K. Bobby Graham, 'Big' Jim Sullivan, 'Little' Jimmy Page, Vick Flick, Alan Weighell, Reg Guest or Arthur Greenslade formed a tight Session Unit, similar to the Wrecking Crew in L.A. There were a tremendous number of other very great Players of course, but a lot of the early Pop and Rock in the Sixties was right there, and represents quite literally thousands of Recordings.




Quote: "you seem to imply that with modern techniques enable it's easy (maybe too easy) for engineers to move notes to the exact position on the beat (even with my limited experience, I have encountered this and it wound me up because I'd played the notes deliberately the way they were) and engineers may fiddle about and replace notes into the 'correct' position - I'm just wondering how this might interfere with the original music played and idea of the player."



Well summed up.

Here, it seems you are describing, a possible conflict of Musical Ideas.

What I am emphasizing, is that the incredible discernment of 1 Millisecond while noteworthy, is quite untypical.

That great Session Players with a tremendous sense of timing, successfully perform "on the beat" with a spread of a handful of Milliseconds, but Play consistently, and in doing so allow more of the Harmonic Information their Instrument creates, to be apparent to the "Sensitivity of the Human Ear" in an ensemble setting.

That, in itself.

Is Enriching to the Quality of Sound.

But quite simply, if the Music "sound dead on the beat" to the Ear.

THAT is good enough. Nothing needs any extra pulling together artificially, to satisfy extra detail, that might be provided to us, via our Eyes.

Doing such attempts at 'tightening' when it's not really essential to do so, may very well take away something from the Recording. And performing, any unnecessary extra processing, usually does strip away some quality or other.

But the extent of that, might only become completely apparent to you further down the road when things are Mixed Down, or the Music is converted to a lesser Quality Format, which you will appreciate is very common now.

(Another reason for starting Tracking with Higher Sample Rates like 96 kHz if at all possible).

But like Frequency Response, there are trade off's in regard to how high you go.

Thanks so much, for all the excellent and well made points from everyone.



P

 

[theroan]

I love the way mine sounds.

 

[drTStingray]

Very informative Microbaroms, as always. Thanks v much for the insight.

 

[Spudmurphy]

Mate of mine plays bass in a famous 60's Band (with an avian name!). You always see him in pics with his infamous VOX amp/speaker combo and his P bass. Quess what he uses in the studio? Stingray bass. - go figure.

 

[Golem]

Mate of mine plays bass in a famous 60's Band (with an avian name!). You always see him in pics with his infamous VOX amp/speaker combo and his P bass. Quess what he uses in the studio? Stingray bass. - go figure.

Well, if he has to have "correct appearance" live, there was
no 1960's Ray, so thaz reasonable. OTOH he's not currently
recording in a 1960s studio set up, so acoarst the Ray is
gonna do THAT job [or at least until he goes Boingo ... ].

 

[Jimmyb]

Mate of mine plays bass in a famous 60's Band (with an avian name!). You always see him in pics with his infamous VOX amp/speaker combo and his P bass. Quess what he uses in the studio? Stingray bass. - go figure.

Johnny and the Cockatoos?