Question Return to the Scene of the Tone: new ST5 v 2008 ST5 v 2000 SR5

[stuartv]

As some of you know I have a 2000 SR5H (thus, ceramic magnet pickup) that I have had for over a year. And, 3 weeks ago, I went into GC to kill some time and tried a new SR5H (thus, alnico magnet pickup) and a new Sterling 5H through an SVT/810 rig.

The SR5 sounded good, but did not particularly strike me as sounding different than my own SR5. Then I played the new ST5 and the tone immediately blew my socks off. After that, I went on a 3 week OCD tour, looking for a nice, used ST5. Along the way, I learned that my own SR5H has the same pickup and preamp as the current ST5, but by then the hook was set.

This past Saturday, I traded another bass, which I already had on CL, to my local boutique bass shop for a used ST5H 2008 Limited Edition. I played my SR5 and the LE back to back last night, through my practice rig. They sounded like about the same tone, but the LE seemed a little more dull and muted than the StingRay. I chalked that up to fairly fresh strings on the SR5 and old-looking strings of unknown origin on the LE.

So, tonight, I returned to the Scene of the Tone. I took both my basses to the GC that started all this. I bought a new set of Power Slinkys and put them on the LE right there at the store. Then I took them into the bass room and played them and the 2 basses from my previous visit, all through the same SVT/810.

I started with the new SR5. It sounded good, but not like anything special. Then I played my SR5. I definitely liked the tone better, but it didn't blow my socks off. Then I tried the brand new ST5. It blew me away again. It seemed way more aggressive. I thought, okay, maybe it's the Circle K strings on my old SR5 that don't sound good. So then I switched to my LE, with the new Power Slinkys. And it sounded almost identical to my SR5! Definitely not the punch-you-in-the-face sound I was getting from the new ST5.

I was feeling pretty stumped by then. But then I thought to look at the pickup height. Just on a casual visual inspection, with no tools around to measure with, it looked like the new ST5 pickup was higher than the LE pickup. Maybe about 1/4" higher.

I didn't have any tools with me, and by then it was closing time at GC.

So, do you think that bit of difference in pickup height would account for that kind of difference in sound?

As soon as I can scrounge the right screwdriver, I'm going to raise my pickup and see. But, if I can't get my LE to sound like that new one, I may have to go back to GC and take a beating on trading one or both of the ones I have, to get That One ST5 that they have.

 

[Gravesend Black]

Ty for sharing your research. I think that PU height is pretty important. + don't forget about your personal perception and the fact that every instrument has it's own sound.

As for me, my ceramics SR5 definitely sounds like "punch-you-in-the-face" thing =)

 

[Soulkeeper]

I think that PU height is pretty important.

To put it mildly, IMO.

I don't see much point in reading the factory specs for neck and string height setup. But when it comes to the distance between PU and strings, I actually do use the factory specs as a starting point. It's the one parameter that you can't "feel", plus it has this huge impact on the sound.

 

[stuartv]

Can any of you tell me what I would expect to find under these pickups? Does EBMM put springs under them, or just foam?

It seems like with some of my other basses, in the past, there is just foam under the pickups. And if they've been set in a spot for long enough, and you try to raise them, the foam is permanently too compressed and it won't push or hold the pickups at the new taller height.

Should I be prepared with some new foam on hand, to take the pickup out and replace the foam underneath?

 

[stuartv]

Ty for sharing your research. I think that PU height is pretty important. + don't forget about your personal perception and the fact that every instrument has it's own sound.

Yep, yep. Logic dictates that it must be just a pickup height issue. And, sure, every bass wil sound a little different. But, in this case, all 3 are maple boards, with a single H pickup, and supposedly the same pickup and preamp (including EQ). It *could* be just my perception, somehow, but when both my own basses sound virtually the same, and the new bass sounds so much different, I'm *pretty* sure it's not just my brain inventing a difference that's not really there.

Unfortunately - for many reasons, actually - I'm in the middle of moving from CA to VA, so I probably won't be able to mess with pickup heights and do more comparisons until at least Monday. But, when I do, I'll definitely report back. And, eventually, I will find where I packed my digital recorder, so I can actually record the different basses and compare them more objectively as well as share the recordings, so you can hear for yourself what I'm talking about.

 

[Gravesend Black]

Yep, yep. Logic dictates that it must be just a pickup height issue. And, sure, every bass wil sound a little different. But, in this case, all 3 are maple boards, with a single H pickup, and supposedly the same pickup and preamp (including EQ). It *could* be just my perception, somehow, but when both my own basses sound virtually the same, and the new bass sounds so much different, I'm *pretty* sure it's not just my brain inventing a difference that's not really there.

Unfortunately - for many reasons, actually - I'm in the middle of moving from CA to VA, so I probably won't be able to mess with pickup heights and do more comparisons until at least Monday. But, when I do, I'll definitely report back. And, eventually, I will find where I packed my digital recorder, so I can actually record the different basses and compare them more objectively as well as share the recordings, so you can hear for yourself what I'm talking about.

At least all of 3 basses can have different preamp revisions. Okay, I will track this thread for your report. Good look with your moving =)

 

[stuartv]

At least all of 3 basses can have different preamp revisions.

That is the one variable that concerns me... :-\

 

[five7]

Do they all have fresh batteries.

 

[tbonesullivan]

Pickup height can definitely have an effect on tone. A lot of people in the skinny string world keep them as close as possible to the strings without "strat-itis" so higher output, but often the better tone can be found by lowering them a little.

If you are worried about the pre-amp revisions, you could contact CS to see how different they are in terms of sound. I think in terms of boost/cut and range they really haven't changed them much. It may be more about a better way of doing something, or using less complicated circuits.

 

[stuartv]

Do they all have fresh batteries.

Well, the LE has the battery that was in it when I got it last weekend, so unknown.

But, my StingRay has a battery that I put in 3 or 4 months ago and it has only been played a few hours since then, and stored in its HSC (thus, nothing in the output jack) all the rest of the time. So, the SR battery definitely should be fine.

But, after I adjust the pickup height, if that doesn't give me the sound I'm looking for, I will put in a new battery, just to see.

 

[stuartv]

I was just talking to a friend of mine that I used to play in a band with. Him on bass and me on drums. He used to have a 2002 StingRay 5H (thus, ceramic). Then he got a 2011 SR5 HS. His '02 SR5 was noticeably quieter than his '11. He even got the preamp replaced with a brand new one and it was still quieter.

I'm starting to wonder if the older ceramic pickups are, either, quieter than the new ones, or, they lose something over time and become quieter as they age.

 

[tbonesullivan]

That could be partly due to the wiring. on my 2012 SR5H, the series mode single H is more powerful than the Parallel mode. There is much more of a mid-range punch and power, though it doesn't have as much smooth growl that the Parallel mode does. My 2007 SR5 HS, which is ceramic, is about as loud as my Alnico SR5H on series mode.

Maybe, because the 2011 SR5 HS your friend has is all parallel, it sounds softer than the '02 SR5.

 

[stuartv]

But you've got it backwards. His 2002 SR5 was quieter than the 2011.

And in my case, all 3 basses (2000 SR5H, 2008 Sterling 5H, 2012 or 2013 Sterling 5H) are wired the same way and I was testing them all in the Series position (selector switch positioned closest to neck).

 

[Golem]

`


PU-height-wise, 1/4" is a lot. Please
let us know your results on PU height.

BTW, alnico magnets do typically fade
somewhat over time but ceramics are
relatively free of this variable.

PS:
IIRC, no one answered you about the
adjusting mechanism under the PUs.
It's all springs, so no worries there.

`

 

[stuartv]

PU-height-wise, 1/4" is a lot. Please
let us know your result on PU height.

For sure, on both counts.

I wish I had been able to measure the pickup height on the new Sterling, so I could then ensure I set my LE to the same.

Maybe next week I can take a ruler and screwdriver and take my LE back to that GC. If they still have that Sterling, I can measure and adjust mine and compare them again.

I'll definitely post back after I change the LE. But, I'm leaving on a 4-day motorcycle trip down to north GA tomorrow morning, so it probably won't be until next week. :-D

 

[jlepre]

Just my 2 cents, but I would change the battery BEFORE changing the pup height. One takes a few seconds, and the other is a little more time consuming.

 

[stuartv]

Small update:

First, John, I was confident enough that the batteries were okay (mainly because the one had pretty new ones and the other sounded virtually identical) that I skipped putting in new ones and went straight to pickup height.

The factory spec that I found said the pickup should be 3/16" below the strings.

The StingRay pickup is actually slightly closer to the strings than that. But, the LE was way lower than that. I don't know exactly what it was because I didn't have a ruler at the time, nor the patience to wait. So, I adjusted it up. Approximately 4 full turns of the screws on the B string side and 6 on the G string side, I think, to raise it and get it level. I have since measured it and my eyeball estimate turned out to be pretty much exactly correct. The pickup is now right at 3/16" below the B string and very level-looking.

Playing the StingRay and LE back to back now, the LE sounds noticeably louder and more aggressive. They used to sound the same, to me. The next step is to take them both back to The Scene of the Tone and compare them again to my "Reference Sterling". I expect that the LE will now sound very much like that one. Which will just leave me very curious as to why the 2000 StingRay 5 doesn't sound just like the other 2.

I'll update again after I've had a chance to go to GC again.

And thanks to anybody that is still paying attention to this!!

 

[stuartv]

ps. John, maybe now I'll put new batteries in them both, just to be SURE that's not contributing....

 

[stuartv]

Testing complete. I took the LE back to GC tonight and played it against the original Sterling 5H that started my quest. And now that my LE has new strings and the pickup set to the factory spec height, they sound virtually the same. I now feel that I have The Axe of the Bass Gods. :-D

And my Stingray 5 will be up on CL and TB shortly.

 

[Gravesend Black]

I'm glad that you've found the answers. So is there so much difference between cSR5 and Sterling?