Bold innovation would be nice again

[JayDawg]

Im sorry for being honest.....we will try harder to meet you kid's expectations...It is challenging trying to make instruments in California in a guitar market that is on its ass. Really...it has never been this hard....

BP, thank you for all that you and your company does! I hated to see certain models get discontinued as well as certain colors but I also understand you had to make a business decision. Maybe decisions even you hated making but it was best for business.

I can't wait for the passive basses to hit the stores. I have a Cutlass PDN bass on order right now and can't wait to get it. Also, thank you for keeping the Bongo even if some consider it a failure as a bass. I personally do not and have loved every one I have ever owned.

Keep doing what your doing. And I will continue to do my best to sing the praises of EBMM. I absolutely love your company, instruments and all that you guys do. So again, thank you!

 

[scottbass71]

Here is my 2 cents from a few points of view
1. Design electronics Engineer for manufacturing
2. Repairer of musical equipment - amps etc
3. Bassplayer

People asking for Innovation with instruments and this is not having a go at anyone
do you own a Bongo, Gamechanger, Big Al, Reflex? - have you put your money where your mouth is.
I will put my hand up and say I own a Bongo, Big Al & Reflex (well 25th Ann Sr which is a precursor).

Are they my main Bass No - My 1st love is my 1994 SR5 In translucent Teal ( My 1st Real Bass) and always will be
but 2nd would be either 30th Ann Sr4 (as BP says best SR ever made) , 25th Ann Sr or Big Al.

My world is like Superman & Bizzaro Superman as Design electronics Engineer i am exposed to the latest & greatest then when I repair amps I have to go back 70 or more years!!
The guys I work with joke about Valves (Tubes) saying they are Transistors with a night Light!! I actually had to learn Valve theory because when I went to UNi it wasn't taught.

Musicians are their own worst enemy sometimes they are offered so many options yet seem to float toward different versions of a Strat, Tele, P & J Bass or Musicmans etc. just look at the music magazines review section. In saying that I think bassplayers are a bit more open the guitarists.

Vintage has a place but do you think that every instrument that came out of leos factory was perfect. A small side story a friend who I do repairs for is a master Luthier he tells me a story in the early 80s he had a few L series Strats his words "they were dogs" he ended up stripping the electronics and taking them to the tip - if only he had a crystal ball!!!

We are so lucking at this point in time that we have Innovators like Sterling, Dudley and all the others at EB and who we can actually interact with via this forum, that are willing to have a go and design new products for us - we need to support them.

 

[Golem]

I noticed body shape included in the idea of "Innovation"
and that definitely bothers me. All the innovations in my
Boingos other than body shape are the reason I keep
them .... DESPITE the body shape. WTF does BMW know
about playing bass ? Not one damnt thing, per empirical
evidence. There's already been a longish thread in this
forum that was divided about 50-50 as to the discomfort
of the Boingo shape. [If you need details, do a search.]

As to tradition and inertia and how they affect sales of a
new-and-different offering, I wanna address body shape.
The old school electric bass shape, the StingRay, P-Bass
etc etc shape is not just a nostalgic or emotional comfort
zone ... it's a physiological comfort zone.

Its form follows function, and its function is to interface
with your body. Change the form, and you fail, in some
degree, to follow function. Function here means comfort !

-------------------------------------------------------------

The original P and all similar bass bodies were 99% just
right comfort-wise from The Big Bang forward. All of the
curves have purposes, and reshaping or relocating them
always compromises comfort. Same with edge thickness
and shape. The narrow stylish Boingo edges are inferior,
as are the "flattop" SR editions with edge binding, when
the bass rests across your leg, or your right forearm has
to cross the upper edge of the body. The tiny misshapen
and poorly located "leg rest curve" on the Boingo is bad
news. Any top horn shorter than on the classic SR, P, etc
etc has an unfortunate effect on balance.

IOW the basic classic electric bass body can only suffer,
not improve, from innovation. Innovate the other stuff !


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The most in-your-face visible claim of being innovative
is obviously the body shape, cuz it's so large. But it's the
worst place to innovate. If keeping that classic body has
the unfortunate tendency to signal to buyers that a new
bass has zero innovative features, then deal with it. Who
buys a bass without playing it ? OK. On-line buyers do it,
but they have return privileges. Players don't buy, or will
return for refund, an uncomfortable instrument.

Acoarst that last statement is a sweeping generalization.
I myself am among the legions of "exception to the rule".
I love the sonic palette and the neck on my Boingo, and
also on my Thumb, so much that I choose to suffer their
evil body designs. But it royally pisses me off. Pissing off
players does not strike me as great marketing.

 

[Edmang]

Something that I think influences sales of a particular instrument is some people want to purchase the bass used by one of their idols. Someone might want a Jazz because of Jaco, a P because of Jameson, a Stingray because of Pino.

I believe this impacts sales for newly designed instruments in getting folks to purchase them.

 

[96brigadier]

Im sorry for being honest.....we will try harder to meet you kid's expectations...It is challenging trying to make instruments in California in a guitar market that is on its ass. Really...it has never been this hard....

It's unfortunate more people don't like some of the designs you've put out.

I own a Reflex 4HH and I love it.
I own a Big Al SSS and I love it.
I own a Bongo 4HS (Dargie Delight II) and I love it.
I own a Stingray 4H and I love it.
I have a Bongo 4HH Starry Night on order... and I will love it.

EBMM makes amazing products, sad to see the Reflex and Big Al get chopped but understand, business is business.

 

[bovinehost]

FTR and because I feel like spouting off, my first Stingray was somewhere around 1978 and I was reticent to accept it (until I took it to rehearsal). It had a BATTERY. What wizardry was this? FTR, I finally found out what happened to that bass; it ended up with the guy from Dire Straits. So it goes.

I fooled around with a few in the early 80s. They were so close to what I wanted, what I remembered about my first Stingray, but not quite. And then things changed. Sterling bought the joint, although I didn't know him then, and lured Dudley away from his "real job" and that's when things really solidified.

I was not a fan of the bullet truss rod. They fixed that - quite nicely. I never liked the micro-tilt. It was scrapped. The Stingrays and then the Sterlings and the Stingray 5s became what they are now - better in all respects, which I know annoys some fans of the 70s Stingrays, but I'm old enough to remember when they were new and I might even know what I'm talking about. It could happen. Write it down! Modern-day Stingrays are much better instruments than the B00 models Leo and company built. You could never count on those to be consistent. May the deity of your choice bless Leo's geeky pocket protectors, of course.

And there is simply no other manufacturer that does what Music Man does, which is put great tools in the hands of musicians at what is still a very decent price point, given the quality and consistency. Every now and then, to my great happiness, they build a Bongo. Or a Reflex. Or a Big Al. I have those. Like many of you, I'm sorry the Reflex and the Big Al didn't make the cut, but they were - are - killer instruments and now we have collectors items, so THERE.

And now we get the passive basses. WHAT MORE CAN WE ASK FOR?

Oh, wait - I know. The PDNs. Crazy Emerald Green Sparkle Bongos and Starry Nights and roasted necks and - it's a long list. The Anniversary models. The most beautiful Stingray 5 ever built: the 20th. Special runs. Crazy Dargie Delights with martini inlays.

And now the 40th Anniversary Stingray, the Old Smoothie, which is even better than the 30th SR4, that crazy mahogany monster. Even. Better. And sure to comfort those who pine, somewhat foolishly, for the 70s Stingrays. This is far beyond those old beasts.

I can get nostalgic, too, but I like to think I still see things clearly. I wouldn't trade my 40th for a B00, I promise.

So all these things, we get. The bottom line is a harsh mistress and things fall by the wayside. I miss some of those finishes, too. Probably Sterling does, too. (Not the Heinz finish.) I even miss what this forum used to be, really, although it could be way more - time-consuming. I have other adjectives which I will keep to myself, but it WAS a lot of fun at the time. Times change. The market changes. Belts tighten.

I used to say this a lot: "I never lose my sense of wonder."

I say it again: "I never lose my sense of wonder."

Thank you, Sterling, and Scott and Brian and Dudley and Aziah and Derek and everyone else, many of whom are no longer appearing in this film. This is all still just so damned awesome.

Jackie

 

[scottbass71]

"And now the 40th Anniversary Stingray, the Old Smoothie, which is even better than the 30th SR4, that crazy mahogany monster."

Thems fighting words jack better than the 30th!!! - I need to get a 40th and compare I guess, but I do love the mahogany 30th so the testing could be flawed

apart from above I agree in what everything else you said.

speaking of the past its been over 10 years since the open house still have great memories of that

Scott

 

[MudvilleStomper]

Didn't someone high up in the company (and I mean REAL high up in the company) mention something about a new bass model based on one of the innovative guitar models...?

 

[steevo]

Im sorry for being honest.....we will try harder to meet you kid's expectations...It is challenging trying to make instruments in California in a guitar market that is on its ass. Really...it has never been this hard....

Dont ever change what you do, please.

I think the fact people want more from you in terms of instruments is a big compliment because EBMM are one of the few instrument makers who do offer genuine innovation. Its not so much that people dont think what you do is enough, its that you guys are capable of pulling off what most makers cant, classic looks, great sounds and features that work instead of being gimmicks. No reason to change that at all.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[Golem]

Something that I think influences sales of a particular instrument
is some people want to purchase the bass used by one of their
idols. Someone might want a Jazz because of Jaco, a P because
of Jameson, a Stingray because of Pino.

I believe this impacts sales for newly designed instruments in
getting folks to purchase them.

I'm gonna say you're wrong. Not cuz I know it or can prove it.
I say it, in public, out of wishful thinking. At least, despite the
unpleasant and highly likely possibility that you are correct, it
warms my heart to deny it.

At least here in the MM Bass forum, I recall only extremely few
examples of bass idolatry. I realize EBMM has many signature
geetarz, but geetards can plead not guilty for reason of idiotic
psychotic fugguppedness. Here in the LowLands we see plenty
of special limited editions INSTEAD OF idol-signature models.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaze tell me that will never change !

 

[Oldtoe]

Regarding the assertion that the Bongo's body shape is inherently wrong ergonomically: I suppose my body's shape is also inherently wrong. I have tried to like and keep many other basses, but still play my old Blue Pearl Bongo 4HH more than any other instrument I own. No other bass feels as natural to me. I mean, I am a lumpy guy I guess. If I were made of pixels, I'd be happy with something made entirely of right angles, eh?

Sterling, thank you for everything. Always.

 

[bovinehost]

Regarding the assertion that the Bongo's body shape is inherently wrong ergonomically: I suppose my body's shape is also inherently wrong. I have tried to like and keep many other basses, but still play my old Blue Pearl Bongo 4HH more than any other instrument I own. No other bass feels as natural to me. I mean, I am a lumpy guy I guess. If I were made of pixels, I'd be happy with something made entirely of right angles, eh?

Sterling, thank you for everything. Always.

I heart you, Ben.

 

[Grugenhagen]

Didn't someone high up in the company (and I mean REAL high up in the company) mention something about a new bass model based on one of the innovative guitar models...?

Yep. I remember seeing that, too. Something rather..."majestic."

 

[Big Poppa]

Ergonomics are in the eye and body of the player. To simply state that BMW doesnt play bass is a great argument if you choose to eliminate us in the design process. BMW didnt design the Bongo...We did it together..And they were only in it really from the schematic phase....they saw it on paper...the first time they saw a real instrument was at the NAMM show when the world saw it
Silly comments like endorsements dont drive demand just got the only response that I will give.

I am in the process of funding an ergonomic study at Cal Poly....creating data bases of players hands, picking angle, picking height, left hand position, right hand position, strap length....Imagine a real ergonomic study instead of stated fact from one point of view? Should be interesting....How much has your style, technique and sound been driven or cast in stone by the strap balance points of your guitar? I think that is innovating but some will say it's not enough

 

[muggsy]

Ergonomics are in the eye and body of the player. To simply state that BMW doesnt play bass is a great argument if you choose to eliminate us in the design process. BMW didnt design the Bongo...We did it together..And they were only in it really from the schematic phase....they saw it on paper...the first time they saw a real instrument was at the NAMM show when the world saw it
Silly comments like endorsements dont drive demand just got the only response that I will give.

I am in the process of funding an ergonomic study at Cal Poly....creating data bases of players hands, picking angle, picking height, left hand position, right hand position, strap length....Imagine a real ergonomic study instead of stated fact from one point of view? Should be interesting....How much has your style, technique and sound been driven or cast in stone by the strap balance points of your guitar? I think that is innovating but some will say it's not enough

Some will always say it's not enough, but oh well. That's very cool, and innovative. I actually love the ergonomics on my Bongo. Look, I also love Fender-style bodies and have a couple, but my Bongo and Big Al are totally different and equally comfortable. The Bongo took a little getting used to, but not much. And the smaller body on the Big Al felt right from the first time I plugged it in. Aside from ergonomics, IMO the preamps on those two basses are where the true innovation lies. I am not big on pushing buttons, and can be easily confused by complicated controls, but the Big Al and Bongo preamps are hugely flexible and intuitive, even for me.

 

[steevo]

Lets face it, when it comes to genuine innovation in guitar and bass making there is very little that can be done. Pickups are pickups, everyone has their own individual preference but since the 50's we still use the same basic design. Locking tuners, bridges, truss rod designs etc. are what they are and players predominantly want simplicity and functionality. If all this thread is down to is the body shape of new instruments then we can only sit back and trust EBMM to continue to do what they do best.

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[ksandvik]

Speaking of ergonomy -- for many of us getting-old players, the weight of instruments will start playing an even more important role so there might be some avenue for developing materials and concepts where light-weight bass guitars still sound massive. Fortunately most of Music Man bass and guitar offerings are not heavy.

 

[Oldtoe]

I heart you, Ben.

You're my sugar pie, too. xo

 

[steevo]

Speaking of ergonomy -- for many of us getting-old players, the weight of instruments will start playing an even more important role so there might be some avenue for developing materials and concepts where light-weight bass guitars still sound massive. Fortunately most of Music Man bass and guitar offerings are not heavy.

Id love to see EBMM's take on an electro acoustic bass. Maybe a semi hollow stingray or caprice bass, bound body and neck and a different selection of tone woods.

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[Golem]

Id love to see EBMM's take on an electro acoustic bass.
Maybe a semi hollow stingray or caprice bass, bound body
and neck and a different selection of tone woods.

Or an Earthwood Hp FL with Boingotronix.

Not holding my breath acoarst !