- Thread starter kstarck
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Rayan
Well-known member
This Tastes Something Like 'Lumpy Gravy' ...
15)
* " [After the financial debacle of]...[business.]"
* ... " Capitol had spent $40,000 on studio and session fees for 'Lumpy Gravy',
designed a sleeve and assigned a catalogue number to the record
before MGM's lawyers stepped in. Litigation lasted for a year ..."
...
* " 'We're Only In It For The Money' was released on 4 March, but not until Zappa had fought with MGM over it. "
* = "zappa" A BIOGRAPHY - Barry Miles
~
/R
OOPS ! Sorry !
- Right City,
- Wrong Suburb
~
/R
~bassmonkeee said:... how exactly is a product line that is the brain child of the head of Ernie Ball ...
... permission after the fact from the guy whose idea it was in the first place to avoid being sued?...
15)
* " [After the financial debacle of]...[business.]"
* ... " Capitol had spent $40,000 on studio and session fees for 'Lumpy Gravy',
designed a sleeve and assigned a catalogue number to the record
before MGM's lawyers stepped in. Litigation lasted for a year ..."
...
* " 'We're Only In It For The Money' was released on 4 March, but not until Zappa had fought with MGM over it. "
* = "zappa" A BIOGRAPHY - Barry Miles
~
/R
OOPS ! Sorry !
- Right City,
- Wrong Suburb
~
/R
kstarck
Member
I *still* think it's a good idea.
Despite the sidetracking in this thread...
OK - unless someone's got some stats to disprove this:
- I think the entire short scale bass niche, even split between many manufacturers, is still larger than the combined niche of baritone guitars and tic-tac basses of the Silhouette Bass, Fender Bass VI, Danelectro / Jerry Jones types.
- One can even argue that half the 'baritone' market is really 27" scale drop-D tuned guitars for the heavy rock market, and thus a niche of its own.
The argument was made that there are already manufacturers serving the short-scale bass market, so EBMM would have nothing to gain by entering. To that I say: whaa? I mean, there are dozens of manufacturers serving the regular bass + guitar markets, so should EBMM pack up its bags and go home there, too?
In the current short-scale market, there isn't anything you could arguably say is "affordable quality." A lot of no-name brands, a few no-frills, entry-level models from established brands, the odd vintage reissue like the EB-0, or hyper-expensive and rare boutique models (alembic stanley clarke, etc.)
To my mind, EBMM can bring something new to the table - modern design sensibility, great engineering and electronics, and the ability to bring it to market for a reasonable price. With OLP as their "licensed copy factory" overseas, they get an additional revenue stream from a cheap-but-good version, too.
And in both cases, it doesn't require a lot of product development or engineering costs - the basis is the Silhouette Bass or the MM5 with different pickups and hardware, maybe a slightly different fingerboard radius and electronics, but that's about all.
To address the person who seemed a tad overwrought about OLP and MM being separate entities; that may be so in a legal sense, as OLP are not a subsidiary of MM. But in terms of perception in the market, the 'design licensed by EBMM' imprint on the back is perceived as a stamp of approval and an implicit connection. Whatever the intention, the *effect* is that OLP is perceived as MM's junior division.
And anyway, it's not just the headstock design that's licensed, it's everything - the body contour designs and the heel carve and the pickup placement and bridge shape - all the way up to entire specific named models such as the Luke, the JP and the Benji. If they really want to dispell the notion that there's a Fender/Squier connection between EBMM/OLP, they're going about it in a funny way...
Despite the sidetracking in this thread...
OK - unless someone's got some stats to disprove this:
- I think the entire short scale bass niche, even split between many manufacturers, is still larger than the combined niche of baritone guitars and tic-tac basses of the Silhouette Bass, Fender Bass VI, Danelectro / Jerry Jones types.
- One can even argue that half the 'baritone' market is really 27" scale drop-D tuned guitars for the heavy rock market, and thus a niche of its own.
The argument was made that there are already manufacturers serving the short-scale bass market, so EBMM would have nothing to gain by entering. To that I say: whaa? I mean, there are dozens of manufacturers serving the regular bass + guitar markets, so should EBMM pack up its bags and go home there, too?
In the current short-scale market, there isn't anything you could arguably say is "affordable quality." A lot of no-name brands, a few no-frills, entry-level models from established brands, the odd vintage reissue like the EB-0, or hyper-expensive and rare boutique models (alembic stanley clarke, etc.)
To my mind, EBMM can bring something new to the table - modern design sensibility, great engineering and electronics, and the ability to bring it to market for a reasonable price. With OLP as their "licensed copy factory" overseas, they get an additional revenue stream from a cheap-but-good version, too.
And in both cases, it doesn't require a lot of product development or engineering costs - the basis is the Silhouette Bass or the MM5 with different pickups and hardware, maybe a slightly different fingerboard radius and electronics, but that's about all.
To address the person who seemed a tad overwrought about OLP and MM being separate entities; that may be so in a legal sense, as OLP are not a subsidiary of MM. But in terms of perception in the market, the 'design licensed by EBMM' imprint on the back is perceived as a stamp of approval and an implicit connection. Whatever the intention, the *effect* is that OLP is perceived as MM's junior division.
And anyway, it's not just the headstock design that's licensed, it's everything - the body contour designs and the heel carve and the pickup placement and bridge shape - all the way up to entire specific named models such as the Luke, the JP and the Benji. If they really want to dispell the notion that there's a Fender/Squier connection between EBMM/OLP, they're going about it in a funny way...
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Musicman Nut
Well-known member
kstarck said:well, if you're already playing full-scale basses, sure, this wouldn't appeal to you. There *is* a market for it, because I know *I* want one
Guitarists who occasionally play bass.
People who like the softer sound / feel of older '60s short-scale basses (hofners, the aforementioned fenders, ampegs, gibsons etc.)
Children / Teens / Beginners
People with smaller hands in general (most women, many Asians - note how thin the necks on most Japanese basses are; not all of us are towering Midwesterners of Swedish descent with 10" hands)
People with arthritis or carpal tunnel syndrome - I think in a year or two that'll account for most Baby Boomers, and lord knows they have disposable income...
I just think the market is rather ill-served at the moment. aside from hyper-expensive boutique basses, there's really only a handful of models out there...there's one ibanez, which is probably the same OEM body as the hamer slammer Special short-scale (gibson eb-0 style), two fenders, one SX J-style, and (shudder) Daisy Rock...There's certainly something EBMM or even OLP can bring to the table here. The niche is probably larger than that of the Silhouette Bass, at that.
First off, Guitar Players shouldn't play Bass, lol. that's why we have all these 5 and 6 string basses, Guitar Players who can't find a job playing guitar so they get a 6 string bass and become a Bass Player.
Next time your guitar Player jumps on Bass Listen to his lines, All guitar lines on bass, anyway, don't waste good wood on Short scale basses.
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SteveB
Well-known member
kstarck said:
Y'know.. if you dig around you'll see that I argued this point long ago.. that the OLP deal would lead to brand confusion.
Big Poppa told me to stay in the title insurance business.
At least now I feel a little vindicated... thanks!
kstarck
Member
SteveB, thanks for pointing that out. Well, a brand's perception in the market is really in the minds of its customers...once it's out there it's really a company's actions that dictate how they're perceived, not what they say.
Interesting that Big Poppa said exactly what I was thinking:
So yeah...without them owning OLP (or requiring investment in overseas factories etc.) they do in effect serve as the low-cost arm for EBMM.
Anyway - I'm going to hunt me up an MM5 and get it converted: plug and redrill the headstock for some Schaller M4 tuners & make a new nut, plunk in some Schaller BassBuckers (drop-in, HB-sized replacements), and if I win this eBay auction, a string-thru bridge from a Stu Hamm Urge bass - or if not, maybe a Schaller 2334 bridge, since it seems more adjustable for narrower string spacing.
Maybe if I get famous, I can get my own signature model
Interesting that Big Poppa said exactly what I was thinking:
So yeah...without them owning OLP (or requiring investment in overseas factories etc.) they do in effect serve as the low-cost arm for EBMM.
Anyway - I'm going to hunt me up an MM5 and get it converted: plug and redrill the headstock for some Schaller M4 tuners & make a new nut, plunk in some Schaller BassBuckers (drop-in, HB-sized replacements), and if I win this eBay auction, a string-thru bridge from a Stu Hamm Urge bass - or if not, maybe a Schaller 2334 bridge, since it seems more adjustable for narrower string spacing.
Maybe if I get famous, I can get my own signature model
Dr. Nick
Well-known member
I'm not sure that EB needs to make a short-scale bass, but the marketplace could use some more choices in the field.
My 13 year old step-daughter started playing the bass last year (I am so proud! )
I let her fool around on an old F@nder until I was sure she was really interested, then we started looking for her own bass. Her main complaint about the F@nder was the length of the neck, so we started looking for short-scale basses.
Squiers? Pieces of S. (at least the ones we played) Unusable, even for a beginner.
Ibanez? Didn't see any.
F@nder? Too expensive. (She's just a beginner, and I'm no Donald Trump)
The solution we came upon was the Ep!phone EB-0 copy. Not great, but a lot better than anything else we could find. She loves the look and the neck, but it is a one-trick pony with an antiquated brdge design (we knew that going in) and she is already lusting after something better.
My point? Do I have one? Oh, yes, I think the market for short-scale basses is, as has been said, primarily beginners and guitarists. I don't think that EB is really trying to cater to those markets with their basses, so IMHO, leave it to some one else...
F#rst Act, anyone?
(Oh, yeah, is anybody buying those $1,000 F#rst Act "Custom Shop" models? Hello? Anyone?.....no, I didn't think so...)
My 13 year old step-daughter started playing the bass last year (I am so proud!
)I let her fool around on an old F@nder until I was sure she was really interested, then we started looking for her own bass. Her main complaint about the F@nder was the length of the neck, so we started looking for short-scale basses.
Squiers? Pieces of S. (at least the ones we played) Unusable, even for a beginner.
Ibanez? Didn't see any.
F@nder? Too expensive. (She's just a beginner, and I'm no Donald Trump)
The solution we came upon was the Ep!phone EB-0 copy. Not great, but a lot better than anything else we could find. She loves the look and the neck, but it is a one-trick pony with an antiquated brdge design (we knew that going in) and she is already lusting after something better.
My point? Do I have one? Oh, yes, I think the market for short-scale basses is, as has been said, primarily beginners and guitarists. I don't think that EB is really trying to cater to those markets with their basses, so IMHO, leave it to some one else...
F#rst Act, anyone?
(Oh, yeah, is anybody buying those $1,000 F#rst Act "Custom Shop" models? Hello? Anyone?.....no, I didn't think so...)
kstarck
Member
Dr. Nick,
Glad to hear about your step-daughter! more grrls need to pick up instruments, I think
Ibanez do make one. It's a single-pickup model, a bit like a Hamer Slammer bass, totally no-frills though, and I don't know how many stores carry them, except the online superstore type places.
I agree, EBMM doesn't *have* to make a short-scale, but if they did...it would be way cool. I guess there's an opportunity there, and who knows? Maybe I'll get into the business and pursue that niche...
Glad to hear about your step-daughter! more grrls need to pick up instruments, I think
Ibanez do make one. It's a single-pickup model, a bit like a Hamer Slammer bass, totally no-frills though, and I don't know how many stores carry them, except the online superstore type places.
I agree, EBMM doesn't *have* to make a short-scale, but if they did...it would be way cool. I guess there's an opportunity there, and who knows? Maybe I'll get into the business and pursue that niche...
The Fender MIJ Mustang RI is a terrific ax in the 30" genre. It's also very similar to what an EB 30" solid body 4 string would be if we reasonably extrapolate EB's 34" product line to get a 30" product. Take a Mustang RI, put in a MM PU and active system [don't forget to put the 'G' tuner peg on the other side.... ] and you've sort of 'breadboarded' the "StingRay Shortie".
I think the above is fairly realistic. Now, not everyone wants a MM PU and MM active system. The current Mustang RI has a good passive set up of a rather generic popular type. And it's one of those beatuifully made Japanese Fenders. It's priced very fairly. Given everything it has going for it, and that it has made barely a ripple in the market pond, I'd look at that and if I were in EB's position, I'd take fair warning from it that my very finite resources are best kept out of the 30" bass market.
I think the above is fairly realistic. Now, not everyone wants a MM PU and MM active system. The current Mustang RI has a good passive set up of a rather generic popular type. And it's one of those beatuifully made Japanese Fenders. It's priced very fairly. Given everything it has going for it, and that it has made barely a ripple in the market pond, I'd look at that and if I were in EB's position, I'd take fair warning from it that my very finite resources are best kept out of the 30" bass market.
About the idea that someone needs to make 30 inch "Jr. Student" basses ..... I see 3, 4, and 5 yr olds at standard pianos. Can they possible show any hot chops on such an oversized instrument ? Beats me, but they learn anyway and embarrass the rest of us by the time they enter middle school.
"OH, OH, but a bass is different, you hold it in your own hands......."
OK maybe. But if one of them unfortunate slave-child soldiers shoots you with his rusty reject old AK or clunky old carbine, you will be just as dead as if an adult soldier shot you with a nice new M-16. Or maybe the way things are heading, some arms maker will see the significant market niche for a "Jr. Student" sized mini AK47, but a good one, not just a Squier .....
"OH, OH, but a bass is different, you hold it in your own hands......."
OK maybe. But if one of them unfortunate slave-child soldiers shoots you with his rusty reject old AK or clunky old carbine, you will be just as dead as if an adult soldier shot you with a nice new M-16. Or maybe the way things are heading, some arms maker will see the significant market niche for a "Jr. Student" sized mini AK47, but a good one, not just a Squier .....
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Dr. Nick
Well-known member
Golem said:
Golem, PLEASE!!!! DON'T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS!
(unfortunately, I am dead (no pun intended) serious
)kstarck said:
Why, thank you. She's a good kid.
kstarck said:
I wish there had been one around when we were looking...I thought it was important that she be able to play the instruments before deciding which one she liked, so no online shopping this time. One of stores did get a Hamer after-the-fact, and it was a notch or two nicer than the Epi, for sure.
kstarck said:
No doubt!
BTW, the el-cheapo Gretsch Synchromatic come in both 34" and 30" and the PU appears to be a std 'elevator ring' type humbucker instalation, making it very easy to upgrade it.Dr. Nick said:
Also, if you want to see another Epi 30" that really is a very nice bass, but more $$, check the RumbleKat [aka Allen Woody] bass. About the same price as the Fender Mustang RI. Fine ax, bears a respected Signature [late Allen Woody of Almans and Gov't Mule], and also failed to hit the market with any impact. Short scale is just not a real market.
OTOH, EB does make lefty basses. Which market is more marginal? 30" or lefty?
Of course 30" is a "lifestyle choice" while leftardness is genetic [I am a lefty, yes that IS me in my avatar playing righty]. Even to leave the DNA out of this, I'd imagine a lefty bass body requires much more retooling than substituting a shorter scale neck onto an otherwise identical 34" standard bass?
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Dr. Nick
Well-known member
Golem said:
Ah, yes! The Allen Woody! (I always have to be careful not to transpose those names...don't want to go THERE
)...I played one once and I thought it was very nice...not my cup of tea, but nice...Too expensive for my little punk rocker though!
(BTW, when I picked her up at school today, she was pretty psyched to hear that her and her bass were a subject of discussion on the board
)
If EB wanted to do a short scale it could be a Bongo Single H down sized for the kids. That would be something that Sterling wanted to do IMHO not something that the business needs to have done. It would be way cool to see some 10 year old thumping a bongo wouldn't it?
tk
tk
