I mentioned to one of my friends the other day that I was into a lot of Dream Theater and Megadeth stuff and pretty much got lynched by him - I'm really kind of sick of the view that it's really uncool to be a good musician or play fast or whathaveyou. Just wanted to know if anyone else has come across this?? I'm a shred-head-speed-riffer and I'm constantly trying to find new ways to rip into my fretboard; please tell me I'm not a sad-arse
- Thread starter Polaris
- Start date
Theres nothing wrong with shredding... I don't shred exclusively, but I can play all of Dream Theater's stuff which I've tried. ie. under a glass moon, glass prison etc.. Shredding is a valid musical style.... classical composers wrote stuff which would be considered shred today... and you can't deny their greatness!
Shredding has a place I think. I think of music as speaking. If all you do is talk really fast with nothing to say, then nobody wants to hear it. If however, you use it as a part of your "vocabulary" and you "speak" fast when you're excited (or when the song calls for it) that's fine. I dislike shredding for no good reason, but I like it when its used tastefully. Some of the stuff that appeared around the early 90's was horrible, just super fast guitar wanking, that barely made sense. There are some guys though, Satriani, Gilbert, Petrucci, who often play very simple little melodies and then rip while doing a scale up, a trick or something, and it sounds great.
A good guitar player would at least be capable of some shredding when needed. In my experience alot of people who bash it, are people who couldn't do it if their lives depended on it. So therefore, it sucks. Kinda like people who own a certain guitar, therefore all other guitars must suck...
A good guitar player would at least be capable of some shredding when needed. In my experience alot of people who bash it, are people who couldn't do it if their lives depended on it. So therefore, it sucks. Kinda like people who own a certain guitar, therefore all other guitars must suck...
SteveB
Well-known member
Shredding is definitely best when it's a tool in a larger toolbox. If it's your only tool, then you might consider expanding your horizons.
Shred can be done fantastically (Paul Gilbert, Tony MacAlpine, Vinnie Moore, Yngwie Malmsteen) or horribly (Alex Masi, Guy Mann Dude, Michael Angelo Batio, Francesco Fareri).
I'll bet the 'friend' who lynched you can't play anywhere near the level of these guys. Neither can I, but I don't have to bash them to feel better about myself. (I'm speaking about the 1st group, not the 2nd)
Shred can be done fantastically (Paul Gilbert, Tony MacAlpine, Vinnie Moore, Yngwie Malmsteen) or horribly (Alex Masi, Guy Mann Dude, Michael Angelo Batio, Francesco Fareri).
I'll bet the 'friend' who lynched you can't play anywhere near the level of these guys. Neither can I, but I don't have to bash them to feel better about myself. (I'm speaking about the 1st group, not the 2nd)
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AxSport4me
Well-known member
To each his own!!!!! If you like shredding then do it! Its about what pleases yourself,not what other people think.
Raz
Well-known member
Hmmm I'll have to disagree with your list here, Francesco is an amazing player. I think it's so easy for people to sit back and judge musicians. I believe music is a form of expression, if Rusty Cooley chooses to express himself by shredding like a madman, then so be it. If you don't like it, it doesn't mean it isn't good. Just as Neil Young chooses to express his lead style in a rough and un-technical manner...it's all about expression. To say that someone shreds horribly is judging, and I find that upsetting. Fine if you do not like someones style, that's one thing, but to say to someone, man you suck...well that's another thing, and we should be careful how and when we pass judgement. We are so lucky today that we can listen to what we choose, so let's leave it at that!SteveB said:Shredding is definitely best when it's a tool in a larger toolbox. If it's your only tool, then you might consider expanding your horizons.
Shred can be done fantastically (Paul Gilbert, Tony MacAlpine, Vinnie Moore, Yngwie Malmsteen) or horribly (Alex Masi, Guy Mann Dude, Michael Angelo Batio, Francesco Fareri).
I'll bet the 'friend' who lynched you can't play anywhere near the level of these guys. Neither can I, but I don't have to bash them to feel better about myself. (I'm speaking about the 1st group, not the 2nd)
francric
Well-known member
AxSport4me said:
AMEN!!!!!!!!!
tommyindelaware
Well-known member
Polaris said:
if your playin guitar ....it's all good. i guess it depends on who yer trying to please.
besides..........that way....yer not robbing my house .
ripley
Well-known member
I try to remember what day it was in 91' or 92' when Nirvana's "Nevermind" came out and killed technical guitar playing....
we NEED more players like Rusty Cooley and Vinnie Moore. I have a friend who professes to play "Emo" - whatever the #$%& that is - and he gets a kick out of chastizing me for listening to and playing anything that even remotely smells like a guitar solo. "ohh... you and yout f#@%ing Mr. Big...." - while he can't even sort out a chromatic major scale. I'd love to know what is supposedly so wrong with being able to solo on your instrument - or what it is that has made it to decidedly unpopular over the last decade. in the 80's guitar playing had an actual identity, it even kind of did in the 90's when it was mostly about wearing flannel shirts and not washing your hair. but it's 2005 and nobody, except the Japanese has any idea as to what the supposed "identity" of early 21st century guitar playing is... ans sadly, most of the Japanese guitar hero culture/identity is largely held over from pre-nirvana western pop culture. oh the humanity.
it's kind of sad that when you go to a show at a small club and the guitar player actually has the bollocks to take a solo; everybody snickers to each other, make air-guitar gestures a' la bill and ted, and go back to playing pool or get another beer. something that too many people completly miss is that what gets passed off as self indulgent shreading is (if done right) not only an extension of someone's technical "toolbox" but also someone's actual voice on their instrument.
when you really think about it, this "anti-shread" mentality has vastly inhibited the natural progression of the instrument. there really aren't any new "guitar heroes/gods" floating around out there that anone actually knows about. there's the guy from Symphony X, and Rusty Cooley, of course, but for the most part they're just toilers who aren't getting their due. Petrucci's about the newest one I can think of and he's been around for a while now. Vai and Satriani are still going strong (considering), but in 88' ,for example, there was some new guy almost every week... sometimes they were jokes, sometimes they were pretty damn good. but that just doesn't happen anymore. and that's sad.
we NEED more players like Rusty Cooley and Vinnie Moore. I have a friend who professes to play "Emo" - whatever the #$%& that is - and he gets a kick out of chastizing me for listening to and playing anything that even remotely smells like a guitar solo. "ohh... you and yout f#@%ing Mr. Big...." - while he can't even sort out a chromatic major scale. I'd love to know what is supposedly so wrong with being able to solo on your instrument - or what it is that has made it to decidedly unpopular over the last decade. in the 80's guitar playing had an actual identity, it even kind of did in the 90's when it was mostly about wearing flannel shirts and not washing your hair. but it's 2005 and nobody, except the Japanese has any idea as to what the supposed "identity" of early 21st century guitar playing is... ans sadly, most of the Japanese guitar hero culture/identity is largely held over from pre-nirvana western pop culture. oh the humanity.
it's kind of sad that when you go to a show at a small club and the guitar player actually has the bollocks to take a solo; everybody snickers to each other, make air-guitar gestures a' la bill and ted, and go back to playing pool or get another beer. something that too many people completly miss is that what gets passed off as self indulgent shreading is (if done right) not only an extension of someone's technical "toolbox" but also someone's actual voice on their instrument.
when you really think about it, this "anti-shread" mentality has vastly inhibited the natural progression of the instrument. there really aren't any new "guitar heroes/gods" floating around out there that anone actually knows about. there's the guy from Symphony X, and Rusty Cooley, of course, but for the most part they're just toilers who aren't getting their due. Petrucci's about the newest one I can think of and he's been around for a while now. Vai and Satriani are still going strong (considering), but in 88' ,for example, there was some new guy almost every week... sometimes they were jokes, sometimes they were pretty damn good. but that just doesn't happen anymore. and that's sad.
savannah_sean
Well-known member
The thing that bothers me about criticism, particularly of music for which instrumental composition (and/or technique) is that the people doing the criticizing don't do so in context, at least as near as I can tell. Rolling Stone magazine has been bashing fusion for years, yet they place someone like Kurt Cobain in the top 10 on their "definitive list" of greatest guitarists of all time, and it seems like such a joke to me. I never cared for Nirvana's music, but I do think that Kurt Cobain has a valid place in Rock and Roll history, but "good guitarist" is not the place. I think a lot of "critics" don't see the type of music we're talking about here for what it is and they dismiss it out of hand because they are somehow making comparisions to "what should appeal to a lot of people"--
So I tend not to pay much mind to what I hear people say about shred, or fusion, or whatever, because chances are they're not thinking about it in the proper context anyway.
So I tend not to pay much mind to what I hear people say about shred, or fusion, or whatever, because chances are they're not thinking about it in the proper context anyway.
The grunge fad the the followup nu-metal fad have had a major impact on what passes for guitar playing. I think the late 80's early 90's just overdid it, guitar-wise, to the point where alot of listeners just had no tolerance for the super technical, polished music that alot of it was. Now whenever someone hears a guitar player solo, it's considered a throwback to those days of shredders everywhere. Lately I've been hearing alot of what I'll call punk-pop, again solos are pretty few and far between, and even then they're usually chordal, or very 2-3 note-ish.
It bugs me though that if a drummer or a guitar player takes a solo, some people view it as, "they think they're rock stars" yet keyboard players, vocalists, sax players, etc.. .can solo on every song and nobody thinks anything of it.
I tend to think too, that the guitar, and guitar playing, guitar players are very misunderstood. Eveyone has a friend or uncle who plays the guitar, or they have an acoustic floating around their home, or in the family. Lots of people play it. Some develop it beyond strumming simple tunes and really start to learn the instrument, then they want to solo, and do cool things with it. Then you have the people who might know how to play it a bit, or know someone who does, and doesn't play like that, they think its ridiculous or whatever. People also tend to act like everybody who plays an electric guitar beyond 3 chord riffs think they're rock stars, while some do admittedly, I think its an unfair stereotype that contributes to the whole anti-shred mentality.
It bugs me though that if a drummer or a guitar player takes a solo, some people view it as, "they think they're rock stars" yet keyboard players, vocalists, sax players, etc.. .can solo on every song and nobody thinks anything of it.
I tend to think too, that the guitar, and guitar playing, guitar players are very misunderstood. Eveyone has a friend or uncle who plays the guitar, or they have an acoustic floating around their home, or in the family. Lots of people play it. Some develop it beyond strumming simple tunes and really start to learn the instrument, then they want to solo, and do cool things with it. Then you have the people who might know how to play it a bit, or know someone who does, and doesn't play like that, they think its ridiculous or whatever. People also tend to act like everybody who plays an electric guitar beyond 3 chord riffs think they're rock stars, while some do admittedly, I think its an unfair stereotype that contributes to the whole anti-shred mentality.
Raz
Well-known member
Well I think there exists today, a line drawn in the sand between mainstream or popular music, and other forms of music that is popular only to select groups. It is to this latter group that I wish to comment on, cause I couldn't give 2 sh&*s what the other group thinks, they and they're toilet paper issue of Rolling Stone. In this latter group, there are those that profess to be fans of the guitar, yet when someone different comes along, they quickly comment on their playing style. For example, Buckethead. I mean let's face it, he's not for everyone, yet that is his style, his expression, the way he wishes to communicate with the world...to say he sucks his a terrible and hurtfull thing. However to say you do not like it, is proper and acceptable. That is the difference. People want to throw judgement down all of the time, and I'm not perfect cause I have done it in the past...I'm human, however when it comes to shredding, or to someone doing things on a guitar that I can't even dream of doing, I will never judge that persons ability, nor their passion, doing whatever it is they are doing on the guitar. I admit, the 80's were filled with a lot of FLASHY solos, but nonetheless, they were still technically impressive. Soon guys like Malmsteen came along, burning up notes and melodies, causing one's hairs to stand on end. These neo-classical shredders opened up the doors for the next generation of guitar players. We know that, when someone credits Hendrix as an influence, that player usually plays a lot more technical, and probably faster than Jimi...so logic tells us that to be faster than Malmsteen and the other pioneers of shredding, is a challenging effort, yet accomplised by those that were influenced by these guitar players. To them, speed is their form of expression. Just like metal, throughout the years has gotten heavier, so does the speed of shredding. It's all relative. Personally my approach is a little of this and a little of that, probably because I couldn't keep up with the metronome at 240, or whatever speed these guys are going at. I'm a feel player, not a technical player...but I love and appreciate guys like Rusty Cooley, Rob Johnson and Francesco Fareri...in fact, I usually need to pick my jaw up off the floor after listenning to them play!
SteveB
Well-known member
Raz said:
We'll just have to disagree on this one, Raz. There's a reason that written music has two sets of symbols.. one for notes and the other for something that some players have never considered... rests.
I have always known a constant spectrum of souding frequencies as 'noise'. Steve Morse's articles were always going on about phrasing, which is the difference between notes and melodies.
As always, these (and the earlier post) are my own bloated opinions and may be readily discarded by the reader with no ill effects.
hbucker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2002
- Messages
- 707
Shredding is cool but can very easily become a "freak show" or "Hey look at me!" kind of thing. It's fatiguing for me to listen to at any great length and loses all musicality shortly after that. It's like one bar of chocolate is good. But eat ten in a row and you want to puke.
Music isn't about how good you are. It's about how well you communicate IMO. With that, there's a place for Shredding. But too much of one thing is just too much IMO.
Music isn't about how good you are. It's about how well you communicate IMO. With that, there's a place for Shredding. But too much of one thing is just too much IMO.
mhorse
Well-known member
ripley said:
There are some new people in the field. So far nobody mentioned Jonathan Donais of Shadows Fall who's pretty darn good, and also Jeff Loomis of Nevermore.
Both of them do some sick solos, but shredding is just another tool in their toolkit. And I'd have to agree with SteveB - shredding can sound horrible. It may be a way of expression, but it doesn't convey much. Most people cannot comprehend more then 2-3 minutes of non-stop shredding, their brain simple starts treating it as noise.
Raz
Well-known member
Well that's why I spoke of the line in the sand...I'm glad that I can enjoy practically all forms of guitar...jazz, fusion, blues, rock, metal, shred...hey even my own stuff once in awhilemhorse said:
ripley
Well-known member
mhorse said:
first, you're right about the 3min. solos. after a while for most people it just runs together. and you're right, Donais is very good - I haven't really listened to Nevermore yet - but when I hear "guitar god" (a phrase which I admittedly don't like too much, but it fits for this example) I don't think Jonathan Donais - mainly because the record label has a particular image they need to sell with Shadows Fall, and having a 21st century ultra guitar hero in the band just doen't mesh with that. it really may be a matter of exposure, or image devolopment or something... I don't know what.
and to raz; I'm glad you mentioned Buckethead. I think in 95' and even as late as whenever Monsters and Robots came out (which I don't really think was the creative high point most critics make it out to be) I would have associated Buckethead with "shread" - but if you've noticed, he's very skillfully navigated the no-man's-land between shread and jam music. after 2 apparences at Bonaroo (hope I spelled that right) with Claypool and company, all the disenfranchised phish fans now speak the name of Buckethead when you talk to them about guitar players - yet bucket has managed to retain his street (cough) credibility with "big guitar" fans. his real talent isn't in burning through altered diatonic 64th note scales as much as it is improvisation and intuition.
I think the bottom line is this; before the end of this decade we really need a new Petrucci. not to replace the old one, of course (the new solo album is so good it gives me a headache), but we need some new guitar hero type who's name immediately calls up images of sickeningly precise technical playing. they're out there somewhere, I just hope some label - other than magna carta - gives them the exposure they need without attatching them to some mopey nu-metal band.
and just so I can have said it; I truly believe the last, great, mostly shread album is Thonk, by Michael Manring (morse and skolnick on guitar - with manring taking CRAZY solos on a 3 octave 4 string bass). it was just enough at the tail end of the last reminents of shread in the mid 90's to still hang onto the style's hayday, but nothing like it really came after. anyone out there agree?
koogie2k
Well-known member
I have experienced the "oh you shred" with shrugs from a bunch of kids who think that crankin an amp in a store and playing 3 power chords makes them a "guitar god".....sad part was, I was playing a classical piece on an electric....Paganini's Caprice #5 in A minor! I mentioned to them that it was a classical piece done so far back in time, it still holds to this day....only met with a blank stare. I then played a romance piece and got the giggles from the same kids. Now, I try to hold my anger especially with the younger crowd, but I was letting this get to me. I simply walked over to them, handed him the guitar, and told him "do it better or shut the hell up.." This I think intimidated them to where they started looking around for their mommies. I simply stated to them, music is something that is diverse and I like to be diverse. I proceeded to rip a Paul Gilbert lick and explained that "that" was shredding which I happen to like. I asked them to play me a simple pentatonic scale....no avail. I asked them what could they play, and I was surprised........nothing that would be considered any form of music...simply noise. I told them to get back to their Spiderman comics or get a book on scales and learn something because the garbage they spewed forth was not in any realm of music known today.....and quit beating up a guitar that could be used by someone with at least the passion to learn how to play.
If your buddy doesn't like shred, cool. His opinion. If he mocks you for it, tell him to show you something that would be impressive. I have seen guys show me some beautiful chord progressions that impressed me.....shred? Sure....just with chords. Kbaim does some of the best finger pickin' I have ever heard....shred? Yep...but with finger pickin'. Dude brought goose bumps on me with one of his originals.....Can he shred? You bet. OC does some of the most tasteful shred runs but employs it to fit the song. I got the privilege of listening to some of his new work.....awesome! Shred? Like Ragu, it's in there!
All the other names mentioned are awesome in their abilities to shred. Just has to be tasteful. I read one interview that said David Gilmour can say in 3 notes what takes Yngwie 500.....is one better than the other? No.
Shred away I say! I do. Albeit, poorly....that is why I practice. I believe the solo is making the comeback because, you have to bring something to the table. We can all write a 3 chord song.......now, we have to show the world something new.
Shred is just a word associated with the ability to play fast. Some of these goofs who think shred is for losers, listen to some of the fastest playing....Shred? Yep.
Tear up the fretboard!
If your buddy doesn't like shred, cool. His opinion. If he mocks you for it, tell him to show you something that would be impressive. I have seen guys show me some beautiful chord progressions that impressed me.....shred? Sure....just with chords. Kbaim does some of the best finger pickin' I have ever heard....shred? Yep...but with finger pickin'. Dude brought goose bumps on me with one of his originals.....Can he shred? You bet. OC does some of the most tasteful shred runs but employs it to fit the song. I got the privilege of listening to some of his new work.....awesome! Shred? Like Ragu, it's in there!
All the other names mentioned are awesome in their abilities to shred. Just has to be tasteful. I read one interview that said David Gilmour can say in 3 notes what takes Yngwie 500.....is one better than the other? No.
Shred away I say! I do. Albeit, poorly....that is why I practice. I believe the solo is making the comeback because, you have to bring something to the table. We can all write a 3 chord song.......now, we have to show the world something new.
Shred is just a word associated with the ability to play fast. Some of these goofs who think shred is for losers, listen to some of the fastest playing....Shred? Yep.
Tear up the fretboard!
phatduckk
Well-known member
i wish i could shred ... but not 'cause like it how it sounds.
i'm one of those that lost appreciation for long guitar solos a while ago. honestly im just not patient enough to hear a long solo and i appreciate lyrics etc (ie the whole song) more than just the lead guy going nuts. (gimmie a cool Maiden duel harmony thingy any day)
i dont like shredding but i wish i could play like that. the dudes dont suck at all ... and whoever says they do are either ignorant or jealous or both.
when i was a kid i used to play basketball a lot and i used to always say that "if i could dunk i be at the court dunking all day". maybe some shredders have fell into that mindset and people have jsut turned off to it (i dunno ... im guessing). just 'cause you can do something it doesnt mean you should.
i'm one of those that lost appreciation for long guitar solos a while ago. honestly im just not patient enough to hear a long solo and i appreciate lyrics etc (ie the whole song) more than just the lead guy going nuts. (gimmie a cool Maiden duel harmony thingy any day)
i dont like shredding but i wish i could play like that. the dudes dont suck at all ... and whoever says they do are either ignorant or jealous or both.
when i was a kid i used to play basketball a lot and i used to always say that "if i could dunk i be at the court dunking all day". maybe some shredders have fell into that mindset and people have jsut turned off to it (i dunno ... im guessing). just 'cause you can do something it doesnt mean you should.
Eddie Van Halen
Well-known member
i bet if a band got famous these days and their guitar player shredded, shredding would make a comeback because society right now is like trend city.
It wouldn't be hard to convert the new generation
sad but true
It wouldn't be hard to convert the new generation
sad but true
