Help! MM tremolo question! Need HELP!

[psychoguitarist]

Hello everyone! I'm Val, you guys might notice that I'm new here and I need some help with my MM JP tremolo setup...
I have a MM JP BFR lefty and I have problem with it. I try to contact MM custom service, but they helped me only with general information, that i can find on their web-site in FAQ section. I have problems with tremolo. It just so tight and not loose. Even if I play with 9s gauge of strings on it. The tremolo bridge is leveled with the body, no forward or backward angle, it's parallel with the body and a little bit drowned under the top of the body, maybe 1-1,5 mm. Radius is set correctly too. My neck action is pretty low too, I use metric feeler gages to set that for 0,05 mm. But the overall feel of the tremolo is the same: too tight (especially when I do a big bends or dive more than 1,5-2 steps). I played on other guitars with tremolos and I feel ok with a 25,5 length scale and 9s strings on Fenders, Jacksons, Ibanez etc. Maybe this is specific feel on all MM guitars? (I don't try them all). Or maybe I need to change springs in a tremolo? Or maybe this is because I use Elixir strings (find that some people say that they are a little bit tight than, for example, Ernie Ball strings).

Help me, please, with professional advice!

 

[yellowv03]

How many trem springs are you running?

 

[psychoguitarist]

How many trem springs are you running?

3 springs that comes from factory with my guitar. I set them like this: | | |. I know also that someone set like /|\

 

[psychoguitarist]

C'mon, guys, nobody ever has the same problem or experience with that?

 

[DrKev]

First off, do you mean the strings feel tight or the moving the trem feels tight?

If the former, remember that different brands of string have different tensions even for the same gauge.

If the trem motion feels tight or stiff...

My Silhouette Special is set up with three springs, parallel, just like your JP. Just pulling my old strat out of it's (now very dusty) case, yes, it has three springs parallel, and the trem action is softer feeling. But many years ago I deliberately chose those springs to be softer. (Of course that guitar never gets played any more).

You can try the trem with two springs and see how it feels. You can also try buying different springs that might have a softer feel (or take them off a different guitar, any springs will do, as long as they fit). Try bending or stretching them with your fingers to get an idea of how hard or soft they are. In both cases, you will need to readjust the string claw, by tightening or loosening the screws, to bring the trem back to level with the body. Try it and see how you get on. Find out what works best for you. If you don't like the factory springs and setup, find out what you do like.

 

[psychoguitarist]

Thanks for the reply, DrKev!
First off, both the strings and the feel of the trem feels tight. The strings - when I do a big bends - 2 or 1,5 steps for example, on 3rd string 7th fret, the tremolo - when I dive more than 2 steps.
Which brand of springs do you choose to change on you old strat? Fender? As I know, they all have different sizes and dimensions..
As I understand, I also need to try different brand of 9s strings.
And if I change the trem springs this may cause some overall tuning unstability?

First off, do you mean the strings feel tight or the moving the trem feels tight?

If the former, remember that different brands of string have different tensions even for the same gauge.

If the trem motion feels tight or stiff...

My Silhouette Special is set up with three springs, parallel, just like your JP. Just pulling my old strat out of it's (now very dusty) case, yes, it has three springs parallel, and the trem action is softer feeling. But many years ago I deliberately chose those springs to be softer. (Of course that guitar never gets played any more).

You can try the trem with two springs and see how it feels. You can also try buying different springs that might have a softer feel (or take them off a different guitar, any springs will do, as long as they fit). Try bending or stretching them with your fingers to get an idea of how hard or soft they are. In both cases, you will need to readjust the string claw, by tightening or loosening the screws, to bring the trem back to level with the body. Try it and see how you get on. Find out what works best for you. If you don't like the factory springs and setup, find out what you do like.

 

[DrKev]

And if I change the trem springs this may cause some overall tuning unstability?

Maybe, but I doubt it. Stiffer springs, or more springs, will mean a stiffer feel but also a greater restoring force and therefore, possibly, better tuning stability. But more important is reducing friction so that everything returns to 'zero position' accurately. I don't think it's a big issue on two-point trems though it might help on six-point vintage strat-style bridges.

BTW, I've just checked - the springs in my strat, and the spares I have lying around, all fit in my Music Man and are all totally interchangeable. They are the same size. Some are a little stiffer than others. It's pot luck. So try the two-spring approach first.

Obviously, I'm gonna suggest you put Ernie Ball strings on there too (this is the EB forum after all). But only make one change at a time so you know what causes what.

Good luck!

 

[psychoguitarist]

Thanks. I will try all suggestions. BTW, I notice than on other superstrats and strat I've played the trem springs were set to /|\. Maybe this give a much more loose feel of the trem and strings bends? Because, distance between sustain block and tremolo claw decreases, spring goes looser, am I right?

Maybe, but I doubt it. Stiffer springs, or more springs, will mean a stiffer feel but also a greater restoring force and therefore, possibly, better tuning stability. But more important is reducing friction so that everything returns to 'zero position' accurately. I don't think it's a big issue on two-point trems though it might help on six-point vintage strat-style bridges.

BTW, I've just checked - the springs in my strat, and the spares I have lying around, all fit in my Music Man and are all totally interchangeable. They are the same size. Some are a little stiffer than others. It's pot luck. So try the two-spring approach first.

Obviously, I'm gonna suggest you put Ernie Ball strings on there too (this is the EB forum after all). But only make one change at a time so you know what causes what.

Good luck!

 

[DrKev]

Thanks. I will try all suggestions. BTW, I notice than on other superstrats and strat I've played the trem springs were set to /|\. Maybe this give a much more loose feel of the trem and strings bends? Because, distance between sustain block and tremolo claw decreases, spring goes looser, am I right?

Well, maybe, it's a complex thing to think about. The ex-physicist in me doesn't quite see it that way. With angled springs, I see two springs that are stretched longer, and therefore have a greater pulling force. Think a combination of Pythagoras's a²+b²=c² and Hookes law (force proportional to extension) and you'll see what I mean. I think it's like adding two more stiffer springs, compared to three parallel. But of course the initial positions are different and strings are stretched to differing degrees so that complicates things further.

Maybe someday in the next week I'll get around to figuring this out and maybe making a little paper of it but I often say that and don't. So bug me about again in a week! In the mean time, try some things out yourself, all of you, and report back. Let's turn it into a little project and I need need some data!

 

[psychoguitarist]

Well, maybe, it's a complex thing to think about. The ex-physicist in me doesn't quite see it that way. With angled springs, I see two springs that are stretched longer, and therefore have a greater pulling force. Think a combination of Pythagoras's a²+b²=c² and Hookes law (force proportional to extension) and you'll see what I mean. I think it's like adding two more stiffer springs, compared to three parallel. But of course the initial positions are different and strings are stretched to differing degrees so that complicates things further.

Maybe someday in the next week I'll get around to figuring this out and maybe making a little paper of it but I often say that and don't. So bug me about again in a week! In the mean time, try some things out yourself, all of you, and report back. Let's turn it into a little project and I need need some data!

OK! Thanks! I'll try and keep you informed!

 

[Norrin Radd]

But only make one change at a time so you know what causes what.

The most important thing said so far!

 

[psychoguitarist]

OK, guys, so I tried to set up my MM with 2 springs both ways: | | , / \ and... it just doesn't work. I just can't tight the screws of trem claw into the body anymore and because of that, can't set my bridge parallel with the body, strings go flat almost 1/2 steps.. So, to me doesn't suffice only a little amount of screw surface into the body. So, I need to tried maybe a different brand of strings or another type of springs. Found that people likes this: Raw Vintage
Any suggestions?

 

[beej]

Unfortunately, all you've got to play with is the springs and claw. If the claw is screwed all the way in and the bridge isn't level, you'll have to go with an additional spring. (Or try different strings which may have different tension.)

There's really no magic here ... it's a matter of balancing the pull from the strings with tension from the springs.

 

[psychoguitarist]

Unfortunately, all you've got to play with is the springs and claw. If the claw is screwed all the way in and the bridge isn't level, you'll have to go with an additional spring. (Or try different strings which may have different tension.)

There's really no magic here ... it's a matter of balancing the pull from the strings with tension from the springs.

Yeah, I realize that... I need to try another springs..
SO, I put my 3 springs back, tried to balance all things and I'm really close to perfect pitch. But, when I work with trem everything is OK, but when I bend, for example, 3rd string, it goes flat and I need to touch my bar to set it right to the pitch back. How I need to balance properly to avoid such problems?

 

[DrKev]

What happens to the other strings?

Tuning Stability Checklist | Fine Tuning

 

[jmbdesigns82]

When you say too tight on the bends and dives what exactly happens? Do the notes choke as you bend, especially, at the higher frets? That could indicate fret work and fret leveling.

It's good to experiment to learn about your instrument, but if you can take it to a professional repairman who also knows what they are doing. Every instrument is different along with one's playing style and how they play too. Advice is good, but you'll get a thousand different remedies asking technical questions like this on forums.

 

[psychoguitarist]

Thanks, guys to replies! DrKev, thanks to such informative link!
I've already balance my bridge, and I notice a little interesting fact: to stay perfectly in tune after working with tremolo & bending, I need to balance it not perfectly parallel with the body, like MM FAQ advices. It need to have just a very little bit forward angle to returns in "zero" position perfectly.
But anyway, the problem is still here: the feel of the bridge & bending is the same. After I'ii have some experiment with new springs (I've decided to put Fender black springs) I'll tell you immediately.

 

[psychoguitarist]

When you say too tight on the bends and dives what exactly happens? Do the notes choke as you bend, especially, at the higher frets? That could indicate fret work and fret leveling.

It's good to experiment to learn about your instrument, but if you can take it to a professional repairman who also knows what they are doing. Every instrument is different along with one's playing style and how they play too. Advice is good, but you'll get a thousand different remedies asking technical questions like this on forums.

I mean, that "feel" of the bridge move on my MM is different, for example, from Fender Strat with similar type of bridge & strings etc. It's too tight for this gauge of strings and number of springs (3 on mine). That's why I need to try different springs to avoid this problem, I think.
I carried my guitar to prof repairman I he said to me almost the same: "Your springs is to tight, you need to try different ones".

 

[Bota]

Thanks, guys to replies! DrKev, thanks to such informative link!
I've already balance my bridge, and I notice a little interesting fact: to stay perfectly in tune after working with tremolo & bending, I need to balance it not perfectly parallel with the body, like MM FAQ advices. It need to have just a very little bit forward angle to returns in "zero" position perfectly.
But anyway, the problem is still here: the feel of the bridge & bending is the same. After I'ii have some experiment with new springs (I've decided to put Fender black springs) I'll tell you immediately.

Could you please post a picture of your bridge?

 

[psychoguitarist]

Could you please post a picture of your bridge?

Hi, Bota! Yes, of course, i'll post them, but now I'm not at home, so in 3 weeks I'll check that. Stay tuned.