Help! Noise: How do I tame it?

[bkrumme]

Hey guys. I'm going through a bit of a guitar rig revolution right now. I decided to ditch my rack and go with just the bare minimum. It's an attempt to learn more about how a guitar signal can be affected and effected. It's also an attempt to find my personal holy grail of tone.

So I started with the basics. I have a Mesa Mark V head running into a Rectifier (oversized) cab. The amp sounds absolutely AMAZING with any of my EBMM guitars, but I'm having a small issue. I don't say it's a big issue because it's really not that bad. I'm still hoping one of the electronics wizards here can help me out...though there may be no solution other than a gate or noise suppressor.

My signal for now includes My BFR JP7 into a passive VP Jr., then to a true bypass overdrive pedal, then into the amp. There's nothing in the FX loop. The OD is running from a fresh battery (no power adapter). On the clean channel it's clean as a whistle and quiet as can be. On the mid channel (mid-gain to high-gain) it's also quiet except when I have the OD on. On the high-gain (extreme) channel, it's noisy whether I have the OD on or not.

My guess is that I'm picking up some kind of interference which is being amplified by the high-gain settings I'm using on my amp. The reason I think this is because the noise goes away when I turn the volume on my guitar or VP Jr. down. If it were the amp, I'd be getting noise no matter what. If it were the power, I'd be getting noise no matter what. If it were the OD pedal or something in the signal chain, I'd be getting noise no matter what.

So I guess my question is this: Does anyone know of a way to tame the noise without using a gate or noise suppressor?

 

[TNT]

It's a shame you have to put "anything" in front of that amp and guitar!!

Since just about any device will in some way shade the pure tone of the amp/guitar combo, I'd try and be absolutely sure that you really "need" that pedal!!

When it's a problem of noise etc. . . it can be a big hassle locating the source. It's not the amp - however from that point on (including the guitar cable) they can all be suspect.

Try bypassing everything and using a premium cable straight into the amp.

 

[meshuggah]

It is a hi-gain amp, you will need a gate or suppressor

 

[guertzi]

Try bypassing everything and using a premium cable straight into the amp.

+1

If that doesn't help, try either one of these:

Decimator Pedal
Decimator G String

Good luck and rock on!

 

[DrGonzo5150]

+1

If that doesn't help, try either one of these:

Decimator Pedal
Decimator G String

Heard good things about these...

 

[D.K.]

+1 on going straight into the amp with a great cable. To me it sounds much more musical even with a bit of hum and other noise, than the noise gates, compressors and such.

Also, Your and Your pedals' position to the amp is very important, too. I always try to get the pedals and myself a bit to the side of the amp, since it reduces the hum hiss and all the other stuff

 

[threeminutesboy]

never use the hi gain mode

just kidding, is your amp noisy without the guitar or only when the guitar is plug in ?

 

[colinboy]

Id try and put guitar straight into amp first and go from there.

Are you ditching your TC Gsystem from your rig mate?

 

[petruccirocks02]

Brad, keep in mind that the noise on the high gain channel could be coming from a bad preamp tube possibly. Do you get any cracking or hissing? I would try tapping each preamp tube with an eraser if you can and see if you get any cracking or hissing. If you do, you know you have a bad preamp tube.

-Phil

 

[Lou]

Depends on what kind of noise you have. IMO, you will never have a silent rig when using high gain and the OD pedal will enhance the noise more. Different lighting, proximity to computers/tv, household wiring, how close you stand to your amp, bad cable, pickups, etc can cause you problems.

 

[bkrumme]

It's a shame you have to put "anything" in front of that amp and guitar!!

Since just about any device will in some way shade the pure tone of the amp/guitar combo, I'd try and be absolutely sure that you really "need" that pedal!!

When it's a problem of noise etc. . . it can be a big hassle locating the source. It's not the amp - however from that point on (including the guitar cable) they can all be suspect.

Try bypassing everything and using a premium cable straight into the amp.

I had thought about this, but didn't have a chance to try it yet. The last time I plugged my guitar straight into the amp with nothing between was at GC when I bought it. I'll try that at rehearsal tomorrow.

It is a hi-gain amp, you will need a gate or suppressor

Not trying to be a d**k, but you have been misinformed. I know a bit about amplification and how things work in high-gain amps. There is a TON of fear, uncertainty, and doubt going around the internet these days when it comes to high-gain amplifiers and whether you need a gate/suppressor or not.

I won't dispute that the easiest way to get rid of noise is with a gate or suppressor. To me, it's just not the best way. Plus, most of them exhibit some level of tone suck. The Decimator is good, but does some not so desirable stuff to my sound.

Besides, if John Petrucci doesn't need a gate or suppressor for his rig with 3 Mark V's and a ton of rack gear in it, I shouldn't need one for mine with 1 Mark V and zero rack gear.

If that doesn't help, try either one of these:

Decimator Pedal
Decimator G String

Good luck and rock on!

Thanks for the links. I actually have a Decimator ProRack G which will do the job nicely, I just don't want to use it how ISP recommends because it cuts off the reverb from the amp. If I have to, I'll just use a single channel between the guitar and the amp, but I'd rather not use the Decimator.

Our other guitarist has a Decimator G-String. Maybe I'll swipe it for a bit before rehearsal to see what kind of affect it has. If it works better than the ProRack G, I could always get one.

To me it sounds much more musical even with a bit of hum and other noise, than the noise gates, compressors and such.

Also, Your and Your pedals' position to the amp is very important, too. I always try to get the pedals and myself a bit to the side of the amp, since it reduces the hum hiss and all the other stuff

I totally agree it is much more musical without all the rest of the crap in my signal chain. You'd be surprised what a couple AD/DA converters in a digital processor will do to your tone.

I hadn't thought about the pedals' position. There could be a spot in the room which isn't as susceptible to interference...I guess it's time to find that spot.

never use the hi gain mode

just kidding, is your amp noisy without the guitar or only when the guitar is plug in ?

LOL. If only I played music which didn't require the high gain. Maybe it's time to stop playing metal AFAIK, it's only when the guitar is plugged in, but I haven't tried it. I'll add this to my list of things to try.

Are you ditching your TC Gsystem from your rig mate?

Yeah, I'm ditching the G-System. I simply don't use it except to switch channels and maybe add some delay, so I'm replacing it with a much less expensive Nova Delay pedal. I can use the stock footswitch for my channels.

Brad, keep in mind that the noise on the high gain channel could be coming from a bad preamp tube possibly. Do you get any cracking or hissing? I would try tapping each preamp tube with an eraser if you can and see if you get any cracking or hissing. If you do, you know you have a bad preamp tube.

-Phil

I hadn't thought about that, but it's a possibility. There's no crackling or hissing at all, just the same, steady noise. The noise level changes when I increase or decrease the volume on the amp. When I turn down it gets quieter, when I turn up it gets louder. This is why I think it's interference. I'd think that a bad preamp tube would still hiss or hum when the guitar volume is down, as well.

I'm going to have to be more observant about what's around the practice space. I don't remember if there are any high-tension wires or sub-stations around, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything like that.

 

[bkrumme]

Depends on what kind of noise you have. IMO, you will never have a silent rig when using high gain and the OD pedal will enhance the noise more. Different lighting, proximity to computers/tv, household wiring, how close you stand to your amp, bad cable, pickups, etc can cause you problems.

Thanks, Lou. I'm trying to take everything into consideration. And I don't expect a perfectly silent rig. It's just the way of the world that a high-gain amp will magnify noise coming from somewhere, if not create some itself. I'm really just trying to minimize the amount of noise.

We practice at my bass player's house and he happens to be an electrician. I'm sure the power is clean and he doesn't have much along the lines of home electronics. Just a small TV which is on the other side of the house and a stereo, both of which are turned off during rehearsal. He also has a home power filtration system installed.

I have a few things to try thanks to you guys and I can always fall back on my decimator. Thanks again.

 

[petruccirocks02]

Brad, I wouldn't even worry about the noise since you have that decimator. That thing should knock out any noise you have.

-Phil

 

[nobozos]

I don't know if it will fix your specific noise problem, but I do have a suggestion that will improve your overall tone.

I noticed in your description that you were using a true-bypass overdrive pedal as the only pedal between your guitar and the amp. This is not good for your tone.

When your pedal is turned on, the pedal's power is boosting the guitars signal through the legnth of cord between the pedal and the amp. The guitar's pickup only has to drive the legnth of cord between the guitar and the pedal, therefore, the only signal loss occurs through that shorter length of cable. When you turn off the pedal in a true bypass pedal, you effectively double, or even triple the legnth of cord that the gutiar's pickup has to drive to get to the amp. This dramatically increases the signal loss between the guitar, and the amp's input. There is good news though:

If you love the sound of your true bypass pedal, but you don't want the signal loss, the fix is easy. Simply put a buffered bypass pedal in front of your true bypass pedal. I believe Boss pedals have the best buffered bypass. So, put a Boss Chromatic tuner in front of your true bypass overdrive, and the legnth of cable between the Tuner and the amp is now driven by the buffered bypass of the Tuner pedal, instead of your pickup. The result is better signal fidelity.

 

[beej]

If the OD pedal is fully bypassed, either it's not shielded well and is picking up interference or one of your cables is.

 

[bkrumme]

Brad, I wouldn't even worry about the noise since you have that decimator. That thing should knock out any noise you have.

-Phil

It will definitely take care of it with some undesirable side effects. If I can't find another solution, I'll figure out a way to make it work only on channel 3.

 

[bkrumme]

I don't know if it will fix your specific noise problem, but I do have a suggestion that will improve your overall tone.

I noticed in your description that you were using a true-bypass overdrive pedal as the only pedal between your guitar and the amp. This is not good for your tone.

When your pedal is turned on, the pedal's power is boosting the guitars signal through the legnth of cord between the pedal and the amp. The guitar's pickup only has to drive the legnth of cord between the guitar and the pedal, therefore, the only signal loss occurs through that shorter length of cable. When you turn off the pedal in a true bypass pedal, you effectively double, or even triple the legnth of cord that the gutiar's pickup has to drive to get to the amp. This dramatically increases the signal loss between the guitar, and the amp's input. There is good news though:

If you love the sound of your true bypass pedal, but you don't want the signal loss, the fix is easy. Simply put a buffered bypass pedal in front of your true bypass pedal. I believe Boss pedals have the best buffered bypass. So, put a Boss Chromatic tuner in front of your true bypass overdrive, and the legnth of cable between the Tuner and the amp is now driven by the buffered bypass of the Tuner pedal, instead of your pickup. The result is better signal fidelity.

I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. There's about 40' of cable between my guitar and amp because of that. More copper in those cables to pick up interference and add some capacitance. I knew I needed a buffer of some kind, but didn't think about it possibly contributing to my problem.

I'm looking into different OD pedals right now anyway, so I'll try to find a buffered one, or I'll just build a DIY buffer. I don't really *need* the OD, so I'll just take it out of the chain until I find the one I want or build the buffer.

If the OD pedal is fully bypassed, either it's not shielded well and is picking up interference or one of your cables is.

That's what I was thinking after nobozos comment. I'll try guitar>cable>amp first chance I get and see if it helps.

 

[nobozos]

I wouldn't give up on the overdrive pedal if it contributes good, colorful tone and gain into the amp. I have a 5150 Combo, (I know, it's not in the same league as a Mark IV) and I use an overdrive pedal with it because it makes the amp sound better.

I've found that if I turn the gain down on my amp, and run an overdrive in front of the amp, I get a more toneful, transparent and useable gain than if I were to use only the gain produced by my amp.

The 5150 Combo at the lower gain setting (on the Rythym channel with the Crunch button out) without the overdrive pedal on allows me to have a relatively decent clean sound with the volume on my guitar rolled back to 6 or 7, and a good 70's rock guitar tone with the guitar volume on 10. With the Crunch button in, you can get good higher gain rythym tones, and great lead tones with the overdrive on. On the lead channel, with the gain rolled back and the overdrive off, you get a good heavy rythym tone, and an insane lead gain with the overdrive on. The overdrive pedal is almost like a 3rd and 4th channel on my amp.

 

[PeteDuBaldo]

LOL. If only I played music which didn't require the high gain. Maybe it's time to stop playing metal AFAIK, it's only when the guitar is plugged in, but I haven't tried it. I'll add this to my list of things to try.

Brad, didn't you get the memo? The JP isn't a metal guitar!

Heh heh heh

 

[bkrumme]

Brad, didn't you get the memo? The JP isn't a metal guitar!

Heh heh heh

LOL. No, it's made of wood