Question Valentine pickups

[ReformedJazz]

I love everything about my Musicman Valentine...

...except I cannot shake the feeling that the pickups aren't quite right for me

I am going to try a few things but my last resort is going to be to switch out the pickups. With that in mind, I wanted to tap the hive mind for collective wisdom here, so

1) I have seen a few threads where people have swapped out the bridge single coil for a Humbucker. My current thinking is that I would quite like to put Humbucker size P90s in both the bridge and the neck position (Bare Knuckle Manhattans in case anybody is interested). Is there any reason NOT to do this? Obviously I understand that there will be no need or possibility for coil tapping the neck pickup any more

2) If I do go down this route...should I be looking to work with the existing harness (is the even possible?) or should I look to have the luthier/tech take it out and use a more standard/vintage/passive harness in its place

Any/all advice appreciated because I am useless with electronics

None of this a criticism of the pickups and electronics btw - I think they are fantastic, just not right for me. I understand the 'leave the guitar as is and get something else' approach BUT I love everything else about this guitar (that I bought used for a good price) and I have an inking it could work well for my needs

thanks in advance

 

[elvisdog]

I wouldn't. There's a lot going on electronically in these guitars -- coils splits, pickup balancing, boost etc -- and some good percentage of that won't work with single coils. I think you'd have to put in a whole new wiring harness along with the new pickups and by then you've spent a pant load of money do get the guitar to do something it wasn't designed to do. But take this with a grain or two of salt -- I have one & love the sound & the versatility. But I also have a Stingray which does no tricks at all & doesn't have a battery & also sounds great. Look for one of those to try? The Stingray neck is a real work of art & fits my hand even better than the Valentine.

 

[Pink]

1) If you like the P90 pickups, then I don't see a reason (that isn't rooted in aesthetics/ 'keeping it original') not to swap out the pickups.

2) Swapping out the internal electronics makes sense if you do not intend to use the current 'guts' with the proposed pickups. Also easier to return everything back to original should you sell the guitar down the road.

If you like the house and the location, but hate the carpet...replace the carpet.

My $0.25 (taking in cost of current inflation).

 

[Pink]

My Silo Specials were old and well used by their previous owners when I purchased them, so I had no real skin in the game by modding the electronics. Like you, however, I really like how my guitars feel, but I didn't enjoy the pickups as much as maybe other pickups I have used or heard in other guitars. I kept the original pickguards intact and rewired my guitars with new pickups, pots, caps and jacks. If the guitar spends more time in my hands now than before, I call that a win despite devaluation or the cost of the guitars initially.

 

[msquared]

There is some discussion in this thread about Valentine pickup replacement where Bareknuckle's HSP90 range gets discussed.

I feel like this comes up a lot with this guitar and IMO it's tough to tell whether it's the pickups that are the issue or the rest of the stuff in the guitar. This guitar is supposed to function as a beefier Telecaster and it does a great job of that but the silent circuit and buffer change how the guitar reacts to pedals. For most of my stuff it works well but it doesn't play nice with everything and the differences are all over the place. You may find that putting in a different set of pickups is a lateral move or you may find that it is a really great upgrade depending on what is causing you to feel like it's not quite right.

Pulling the electronics and wiring it up 1950s style is an easy mod and can be reversed with little issue. It would require a moderately good guitar tech and a pair of new potentiometers. You'd find that the humbucker is quieter when it's split and there would be no boost but otherwise it would be a normal guitar from an electrical standpoint.

As far as swapping pickups and leaving the superhero electronics that come with this guitar is concerned, the process is as easy as desoldering the old pickup connections, swapping the pickups, and soldering in the new pickup connections. The only thing that differs from doing this in a non EBMM guitar is that you're working with a PCB instead of terminals on a potentiometer. In any case this is intermediate level electronics work and it should be no big deal for any competent guitar tech.

And of course you could do both mods - new pickups and old school wiring. Reverting back to stock would be the most difficult if you did this but again, none of it is rocket science. You're just paying your tech for extra bench time.

One thing worth mentioning is that if you swap out the neck pickup for a P90 you will no longer have a humbucker to split so the poles on the push/push tone knob will be available for other functions. Wiring up one of the HSP90s so you could switch it to be out of phase when you hit the tone knob would be pretty cool and again, easy for any competent guitar tech to pull off.

Ultimately your best bet is to figure out who is going to do the work, take your guitar to them, and have a conversation about what you want done. If they aren't comfortable with doing any of this work there is probably someone else who has no issue with it.

As an aside, I contacted BKP about swapping the pickups in one of my Valentines for HSP90s (I'm interested in both the Manhattans and the Blue Notes) but they weren't able to tell me much, including whether or not they will sell their bridge pickups with Fender spacing instead of Gibson spacing and whether or not the spacing even matters. I ended up not going with them but remain interested so please report back if you do this swap.

 

[ReformedJazz]

Thank you SO MUCH everybody

Really appreciate your generosity and wisdom here

Great advice all around, I think

One thing around which there seems consensus is that it is probably better to replace the electronics if I am going to replace the pickups. I think that I can live with this, I am very much of the guitars are tools/replace the carpet/more time in my hands is a win school

Curious that this comes up a lot with this guitar given that they are very fine pickups and features. I do wonder if there is something about tweaking the taper pots etc. to taste etc. (have emailed EBMM for instructions and advice). I also think that the guitar sounds far better 'in the mix' than on its own.

Even more curious that several have gone down or thought about the BK HSP90 route. Curious in the sense that I didn't know how well known they were outside of the UK given how many awesome boutique winders you have Stateside

What I will say is that the BK Manhattans are amazing pickups. I have had them in a Tele and in a 175. I also usually find their customer service very good, so I am sorry to hear that they weren't overly helpful

I am going to think on it a while but will likely just go for it. I think that this guitar with those pickups could be something very special indeed. I'll be sure to report back

thanks again

 

[beej]

This is the thing about signature guitars- they're perfect for the signature artist, but not always for other players.

Make it your own. Replacing pickups is easy. Personally I'd keep the wiring harness (the buffer and boost are great, and you could use the Silent Circuit), but you going passive is great, too.

 

[racerx]

I feel like the odd man out, I love the Valentine pickups. I use them in Fender amps and with the controls, the 3 way switch, split option, and boost - I want for nothing in any clean or crunchy tone space.

@ReformedJazz - what are you specifically after? More warmth? More punch? Highs? Lows? There’s no shortage of great options out there but it’s hard to recommend change for the sake of change.

 

[Sleeping At Sea]

I'm going to jump in on this thread too. I've had my Valentine for a while now but I'm also not quite comfortable with the bridge pickup in particular. I love the neck, the split coil and the boost but the bridge just sounds so bitey and grating to me. Now I don't own a Tele and my other guitars are a Strat, SG,, Les Paul and a Revstar with P90's. These are definitely warmer pickups and whilst I'm not exactly opposed to more sparkle or presence, I just find with the Valentine that clean or heavy tones are just way too harsh and I need to dial the tone knob back to about 30%.

I've been looking at either the BK P90 also or a Lollar Imperial perhaps. I just want a bit more body and warm with keeping the articulation. This is a very bright guitar IMO and with a little taming would be killer!

 

[ReformedJazz]

What a nice discussion this is!

I think the stock set up is great. Innovative and versatile. I can see it must work well for James Valentine (ironically, I don’t know much about who he is - no offence intended) and for others

Just not me and I think this killer guitar will really click with some HSP90s (and I’m not alone

My issues:

- a bit too bright
- and yet somehow not very ‘lively’
- neck pickup never gets full and fat
- tone control tames the edges but loses clarity

So I think HSP90s with old school wiring are the way to go

I suspect the silent circuit might be part of what ‘kills’ it for me

—

Sorry if this is a silly question, but what is the ‘buffer’ as distinct from silent circuit ?

 

[msquared]

I bet Lollar Imperials would sound amazing with the Valentine, especially the low wind ones.

Hmmmm.

 

[ReformedJazz]

I bet Lollar Imperials would sound amazing with the Valentine, especially the low wind ones.

Hmmmm.

I agree

And I think Kent Armstrong (or his son, Aaron who winds KA pickups in the UK) could also do something really special here

 

[DrKev]

I suspect the silent circuit might be part of what ‘kills’ it for me

—

Sorry if this is a silly question, but what is the ‘buffer’ as distinct from silent circuit ?

The silent circuit has no effect on the tone of the pickups. If the tones you are getting with the silent circuit are not your cup of tea, they won't be different without the silent circuit.

The buffer circuit is a unity gain amplifier on the output of the guitar that "disconnects" the pickups from the cable you use. (Usually the pickups 'see' the cable capacitance which affects the amount of treble response and signal strength you get. This is why long cables can sound darker or warmer than short cables. On stage stage with longer cables, that loss of high frequencies and volume can sometimes be a problem). The buffer circuit means that you have the same tone all the time no matter what cable you use, or how long the cable is, or no matter what input impedance the first you plug the guitar into has. It also measn the whole true bypass/buffered bypass thing with effects pedals is taken out of the equation. The disadvantage of a buffer in the guitar is that some vintage style pedals (usually fuzz pedals) with unusually low input impedance may not sound or react quite as intended.

 

[ReformedJazz]

The silent circuit has no effect on the tone of the pickups. If the tones you are getting with the silent circuit are not your cup of tea, they won't be different without the silent circuit.

The buffer circuit is a unity gain amplifier on the output of the guitar that "disconnects" the pickups from the cable you use. (Usually the pickups 'see' the cable capacitance which affects the amount of treble response and signal strength you get. This is why long cables can sound darker or warmer than short cables. On stage stage with longer cables, that loss of high frequencies and volume can sometimes be a problem). The buffer circuit means that you have the same tone all the time no matter what cable you use, or how long the cable is, or no matter what input impedance the first you plug the guitar into has. It also measn the whole true bypass/buffered bypass thing with effects pedals is taken out of the equation. The disadvantage of a buffer in the guitar is that some vintage style pedals (usually fuzz pedals) with unusually low input impedance may not sound or react quite as intended.

Wow! Thank you so much. That’s really informative and helpful, and generous of you

 

[PeterVV]

I love everything about my Musicman Valentine...

...except I cannot shake the feeling that the pickups aren't quite right for me

I am going to try a few things but my last resort is going to be to switch out the pickups. With that in mind, I wanted to tap the hive mind for collective wisdom here, so

1) I have seen a few threads where people have swapped out the bridge single coil for a Humbucker. My current thinking is that I would quite like to put Humbucker size P90s in both the bridge and the neck position (Bare Knuckle Manhattans in case anybody is interested). Is there any reason NOT to do this? Obviously I understand that there will be no need or possibility for coil tapping the neck pickup any more

2) If I do go down this route...should I be looking to work with the existing harness (is the even possible?) or should I look to have the luthier/tech take it out and use a more standard/vintage/passive harness in its place

Any/all advice appreciated because I am useless with electronics

None of this a criticism of the pickups and electronics btw - I think they are fantastic, just not right for me. I understand the 'leave the guitar as is and get something else' approach BUT I love everything else about this guitar (that I bought used for a good price) and I have an inking it could work well for my needs

thanks in advance

I raised the neck pickup, and put in a Bare Knuckle Blue Note HSP90 in the bridge, just spliced the wires so you still get the silent cct and boost. Sounds great and matches the output of the neck bucker perfectly.

 

[Sleeping At Sea]

I raised the neck pickup, and put in a Bare Knuckle Blue Note HSP90 in the bridge, just spliced the wires so you still get the silent cct and boost. Sounds great and matches the output of the neck bucker perfectly.

Hi Peter! I think I am going to get the Blue Note HSP90 for my Valentine also.

I'm just looking at the Bareknuckle website and being not too familiar with pickup hardware, could you please help me out with the options?

To match the Valentine I'm am selecting the 'Chrome' cover but then for 'Conductor' my options are: '2 Conductor + Screen' or 'Braided 2', and the Length there is 'Long 1/2"' or 'Short (1/4")'.

Thanks!

 

[PeterVV]

Hi, you need 2 and screen, length refers to the legs for mounting, so short leg.
Play with the pickup hieghts when you install them especially the neck.
To install, splice the wires together and you keep all functionality . You might need to turn the silent system up.
Hope you enjoy. I love mine.

 

[Sleeping At Sea]

Thankyou for this ! Can't wait to get this put in. I love this guitar but the stock bridge is just too thin and shrill for me. This will be such a good upgrade.

 

[PeterVV]

Thankyou for this ! Can't wait to get this put in. I love this guitar but the stock bridge is just too thin and shrill for me. This will be such a good upgrade.

Just don't expect a humbucker output. I chose the Blue Note as its a cross between a single coil and a P90, sort of like a full bodied single coil without the ice pickyness you get on some. I have a Nantucket in my HSS that has a bit more grunt to it.
I was having all sorts of squealing at volume with drive out of the standard Val bridge pickup, in my opinion its way too over wound, they would have been beter off going with a P90. Any problems , give me a shout.
Remember pick height helps

 

[msquared]

For the record, you can use either wiring option (two conductor + screen or just two conductor) but the first option also allows you to wire it up so you can switch it out of phase with the bridge pickup.

Also, the option isn't on the BKP site but you want to try to get Fender bridge pickup spacing (52 or 53mm) rather than the regular Gibson spacing (50mm). I think you have to email them and let them know to build it out that way.