idea: short scale EBMM or OLP bass

[kstarck]

Here's the basic concept: take the Silhouette Bass, or, maybe to do this at lower cost / risk, the OLP licensed MM5 Baritone. Put 3+1 Gotoh mini tuners on it, rout for 1 or 2 J-style pickups or licensed MM style pickups without polepieces, to deal with the narrower string spacing. Use a simple folded-steel bass bridge suitable to maintain a 30" string length (with strings-thru-body ferrules).

It's not rocket science really, just some different parts and routing on the same basic neck and body. Given that the Silhouette Bass is kind of a niche product, maybe this wouldn't be profitable as a US-produced item, but I could definitely see OLP adding this to their lineup of licensed EBMM products. Maybe at a stretch, there could be a SUB model?

Fender has the Mustang and Bronco short-scale basses, and a few overseas manufacturers (like SX and Daisy Rock) also see profit in the short-scale market, so it stands to reason that there's room at the "high end of the low end" for an OLP/EBMM product - maybe a limited production run to test the waters, at least (1000 units worldwide) retailing for around $349 tops...

 

[Figjam]

Meh, i dont see them gaining anything from it. I know i wouldnt buy one :-/

 

[Dr Stankface]

Meh, i dont see them gaining anything from it. I know i wouldnt buy one :-/

+1

Andrew

 

[kstarck]

well, if you're already playing full-scale basses, sure, this wouldn't appeal to you. There *is* a market for it, because I know *I* want one Here's the potential market:

Guitarists who occasionally play bass.
People who like the softer sound / feel of older '60s short-scale basses (hofners, the aforementioned fenders, ampegs, gibsons etc.)
Children / Teens / Beginners
People with smaller hands in general (most women, many Asians - note how thin the necks on most Japanese basses are; not all of us are towering Midwesterners of Swedish descent with 10" hands)
People with arthritis or carpal tunnel syndrome - I think in a year or two that'll account for most Baby Boomers, and lord knows they have disposable income...

I just think the market is rather ill-served at the moment. aside from hyper-expensive boutique basses, there's really only a handful of models out there...there's one ibanez, which is probably the same OEM body as the hamer slammer Special short-scale (gibson eb-0 style), two fenders, one SX J-style, and (shudder) Daisy Rock...There's certainly something EBMM or even OLP can bring to the table here. The niche is probably larger than that of the Silhouette Bass, at that.

 

[limitk7]

well, if you're already playing full-scale basses, sure, this wouldn't appeal to you. There *is* a market for it, because I know *I* want one Here's the potential market:

Guitarists who occasionally play bass.
People who like the softer sound / feel of older '60s short-scale basses (hofners, the aforementioned fenders, ampegs, gibsons etc.)
Children / Teens / Beginners
People with smaller hands in general (most women, many Asians - note how thin the necks on most Japanese basses are; not all of us are towering Midwesterners of Swedish descent with 10" hands)
People with arthritis or carpal tunnel syndrome - I think in a year or two that'll account for most Baby Boomers, and lord knows they have disposable income...

I don't think you have a bad idea. It's just that there are other factors beyond simply identifying a market for a product that influence a company's decision to develop that product. For example, accounting factors - like whether or not enough basses will sell to justify the all the costs of adding an additional product to your lineup (modifications to the production process are usually expensive, even small ones). Also, marketing factors - like whether or not you even want such a product to appear in your lineup (the products you carry play a big role in defining your company image). And there's the question of how many manufacturers can compete for such a niche market. You mentioned that Fender and some overseas manufacturers are already in it with their products. So if EB hasn't designed a short scale, chances are that they're aware of the market, but some other factor is influencing their decision not to develop them.

You could google the word "ashbory" and see if that's to your liking

Cheers,

 

[kstarck]

Fender's still selling the Ashbory, believe it or not. It's buried on their website on a page with accessories and stuff, but it lives...I mean, someone still plays the Chapman Stick out there, I'm sure.

Sure, with any new product introduction there are costs and risks; that's something for the marketing department to research ahead of time, to see where the demand is, etc. Niches - even one as arguably broad as the short-scale market - get crowded. However, I think EBMM customers represent a very particular niche - they're very, very loyal - so if there was an EBMM-branded product in there, they'd opt for that one first. Conversely, a "beginner's" bass under the EBMM/OLP brand might mean they trade up for a SR, Sterling or Bongo down the road...it works both ways.

It's a tough tradeoff to make. EBMM have smaller production runs with very high quality, so they're not in the experimentation business the way an Ibanez or Fender are. EBMM's rate of new product introductions or line extensions is very, very low. For example, not to underrate the quality control, prototyping and testing that went into them, but how long did it take before 2-pickup Stingrays and Sterlings arrived on the market? Every other bass mfr. on the market has had 2-pickup models for what...nearly 40 years at least? I'm sure a good portion of the EBMM user base must have been asking for them year after year since the Sabre went out of production, too.

Slow innovation and slow response to market demand on one hand, loyal user base and high satisfaction ratings on the other...it leads to one question, is the pace of growth (or adaptation) going to sustain the company? The risk is really that you end up selling to the same people over and over again - without capturing any new market share - and eventually they become saturated.

Apple was in the same position in the 80s and 90s; high quality, healthy margins, fanatically loyal users, but they were essentially only selling replacement Macs to their existing customers. (I've seen more than one forum poster with multiple Petruccis...) It wasn't until the late 90s that they outsourced manufacturing, lowered costs, and got on the road towards expanding their market with new products -- OS X, iMac, iPod, iTunes, Mac Mini -- that reached beyond their niche of wealthy hobbyists, multimedia and publishing pros.

So I'm not saying that one idea for a bass is going to make or break EBMM the way the iPod saved Apple...

But maybe they should think about using OLP not just as a licensing deal to get a bit of dollars from the entry-level, but as a way to kickstart innovation by lowering cost-of-entry and time-to-market. It could be done interactively with EBMM users; run design contests, polls, etc, and versions get shortlisted and voted on and limited-edition versions produced. If there's demand for a reissue, maybe popular models get "deluxe," made-in-USA versions. If manufacturing is centered around common body and neck types, customization comes down to a little CNC routing, produced just-in-time....

 

[Rayan]

Bumble Bees *Do* Fly

~
In my view, as a musician, and participant-observer in business, the Ernie Ball Music Man company, at this point in time, is primarily in the business of 'serving musicians', as opposed to 'growing a musical instrument manufacturing business';
Hence,
Music Man basses are 'created', 'developed' and 'produced' primarily for 'musicians'

If I read the idea correctly, it may just be that the market niche in question is already being served in accordance with its demands, for the time being

In my area, musicians of all races etc are well schooled and geared to developing 'with' their instruments; and I'm always amazed by musicians with small hands 'flying' up and down their fingerboards with such fluidity, finesse and speed

Global forces, being what they 'seem to be', may change the 'complexion' of the market

Who knows? Maybe this 'conversation' has opened a new 'discussion' on the matter of 'choices' in the short scale bass market

I'm all for music, education and community;
- business should serve people, not just shareholders

I'm curious to hear BP's comments
~
/R

 

[limitk7]

I think EBMM customers represent a very particular niche - they're very, very loyal - so if there was an EBMM-branded product in there, they'd opt for that one first. Conversely, a "beginner's" bass under the EBMM/OLP brand might mean they trade up for a SR, Sterling or Bongo down the road...it works both ways.

EBMM already makes and licenses lower-priced basses, which perform the function you're talking about - they introduce the company to bassists and provide incentive to trade up. You wish to add to this an additional quality - a short scale. A short-scale, EBMM affiliated, lower-priced bass is a very specific request, which means the market for them will be smaller. And again, there's the managerial issue of whether or not EB wants to have such a product associated with its name.

Every other bass mfr. on the market has had 2-pickup models for what...nearly 40 years at least? I'm sure a good portion of the EBMM user base must have been asking for them year after year since the Sabre went out of production, too.

Yes, one strategy of running a company is to get into everything - spread your company out to cover as much as possible. Lots of options and all. It has the advantage of making your product line satisfy the desires of a wider range of people, but it also tends to be messier and more confusing for customers.

But another strategy is to focus on your core competencies. It has the advantage of making your product line organized and uncluttered, which makes it easier for customers to make purchasing decisions. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but that both strategies can work equally as well - it's the choice of the company which to use. EBMM has chosen to operate with this one.

Slow innovation and slow response to market demand on one hand, loyal user base and high satisfaction ratings on the other...it leads to one question, is the pace of growth (or adaptation) going to sustain the company? The risk is really that you end up selling to the same people over and over again - without capturing any new market share - and eventually they become saturated.

For your question - the musical instrument industry operates on a different timeline than, say, the tech industry. Chances are that BP and the other executives know exactly what growth pace they need, and are achieving it right now. For the risk you mentioned - I'd hesitate to say that EB only sells to the same people over and over again, and I'm not sure if a short-scale lower priced bass would help the company capture that much more market share.

But maybe they should think about using OLP not just as a licensing deal to get a bit of dollars from the entry-level, but as a way to kickstart innovation by lowering cost-of-entry and time-to-market. It could be done interactively with EBMM users; run design contests, polls, etc, and versions get shortlisted and voted on and limited-edition versions produced. If there's demand for a reissue, maybe popular models get "deluxe," made-in-USA versions. If manufacturing is centered around common body and neck types, customization comes down to a little CNC routing, produced just-in-time....

Again, having a huge product line with lots of re-issues and different models and deluxe USA editions signature series limited edition custom shop instruments is one strategy that can work very well. But it is not the only way for a company to succeed. I understand where you're coming from and sympathize with your desire for a short scale (well, not personally. I happen to be an Asian with large hands). But as I said earlier there are a lot of factors that go into adding an additional product into your lineup - it's not as simple as deciding hey, there's a market for this, and considering the basic need for growth, let's go.

 

[Dr Stankface]

Now that's a post.

Andrew

 

[kstarck]

good points all around.

EBMM already makes and licenses lower-priced basses, which perform the function you're talking about - they introduce the company to bassists and provide incentive to trade up. You wish to add to this an additional quality - a short scale. A short-scale, EBMM affiliated, lower-priced bass is a very specific request (...snip...) For the risk you mentioned - I'd hesitate to say that EB only sells to the same people over and over again, and I'm not sure if a short-scale lower priced bass would help the company capture that much more market share.

Good points - I would of course prefer to see a US made version in the first place.

That said, I find it interesting that they chose to produce an OLP version of the Silhouette Bass; I wonder what marketing numbers drove that decision. Why not the Albert Lee model? Hmmm. I know there's lots of people who dig detuned guitars...but to my mind that still seems like a smaller group than the potential markets I described above.

One of the joys of the Silhouette design is its contoured compactness - both the fact that the body is moved "up" towards the neck, compared to traditional designs, and because the headstock is smaller. It contributes to comfort, light weight, and a generally body-weighted balance that keeps the neck up, preventing the player from getting tired. and aesthetically...it's just lovely. I think these are all qualities that would make an EBMM short-scale not a 'me-too' instrument, but grabbing the top spot as the "best short-scale bass possible."

Well...in the short term...I think I'll try to pick up another OLP MM5 and take it into the ol'woodshop...if anyone has one in that gunmetal grey colour, I'll take it!

 

[Rayan]

Greetings From Western Kanada !!!

... from here in sunny Québec... yeah, EBMMs are hard to come by, not many dealers in Montreal except Steve's as far as I know -- correct me if I'm wrong. But I suppose you're familiar with them as there's a branch out your way.

My keyboard player's from Ottawa originally...small world

~
Hey 'kstarck',
Interesting all what your saying; I've never snooped around the 'Gui*ar' side of the Forum

I've spent some time in Quebec years ago, and
- even though I'm not bilingual
- I know it's 'culturally' a very rich area
- I'm happy to hear CBC radio broadcasts en francais 'out west'


Are EBMM's really in tight supply in your area ?
- I wonder why that is ?
~
/R

 

[Golem]

I just felt moved to repeat, one more time, ad nauseum, that there are no, none, zero, zilch:

'OLP licensed MM products'
'OLP licensed products'
'MM licensed OLP products'
[etc etc etc]

Read the back of the OLP headstock. Read it like you understand English [applies only to those who grew up in the Anglophone territories].

Assuming you are blind, have someone read it to you, slowly, verbatim.

If English is an awkward 2nd or 3rd language for you, so that a brief compact notification on the back of the headstock is, understandably, a bit less than clear to you, the longer version that would fit on a really big headstock would read something like this:

"This is not an EB MM product and is not in anyway releated to EB MM, but we thought it would sell better if it looked like one, so it looks like one. Our lawyers warned us that appearances and visual identity of EB MM products may possibly be the intelectual property of EB MM, so we made an arrangement to acquire permission to use that appearance on our stuff."

License = permission = license, and nothing, naddagawdamt thing, more.

I do not hate OLP. I have an OLP baritone 6 [aka OLP MM5] and found it to be a perfectly usable POS after minor modding. So, I have my very own OLP product, I have my reading glasses, and I can read the back of the headstock for my very owndamtself, and I do not see anywhere any statement that this product is licensed by EB MM, approved by EB MM or connected to EB MM.

 

[bassmonkeee]

I just felt moved to repeat, one more time, ad nauseum, that there are no, none, zero, zilch:

'OLP licensed MM products'
'OLP licensed products'
'MM licensed OLP products'
[etc etc etc]

Read the back of the OLP headstock. Read it like you understand English [applies only to those who grew up in the Anglophone territories].

Assuming you are blind, have someone read it to you, slowly, verbatim.

If English is an awkward 2nd or 3rd language for you, so that a brief compact notification on the back of the headstock is, understandably, a bit less than clear to you, the longer version that would fit on a really big headstock would read something like this:

This is not an EB MM product and is not in anyway releated to EB MM but we thought it would sell better if it looked like one so it looks like one. Our lawyers warned us that appearances and visual identity of EB MM products may possibly be the intelectual property of EB MM, so we made an arrangement to acquire permission to use that appearance on our stuff. License = permission = license, and nothing, naddagawdamt thing, more.

I do not hate OLP. I have an OLP baritone 6 [aka OLP MM5] and found it to be a perfectly usable POS after minor modding. So, I have my very own OLP product, I have my reading glasses, and I can read the back of the headstock for my very owndamtself, and I do not see anywhere any statement that this product is licensed by EB MM, approved by EB MM or connected to EB MM.

You might want to read this thread:

http://www.ernieball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9671&highlight=Officially+licensed+product

and then promptly edit your post so you don't look quite so silly.

 

[Figjam]

Yet , isnt it true that , i think, Scott Ball? Works over at the OLP place from time to time and works with them?

edit; beat me to it

 

[Golem]

You might want to read this thread:

http://www.ernieball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9671&highlight=Officially+licensed+product

and then promptly edit your post so you don't look quite so silly.

Yes I've read it before, had not forgotten it, and it's cool that these guys are friends, and no I don't feel silly. And thanks for posting the crosslink so others can check that out. However, the two products lines, EBMM and OLP, are totally unrelated.

EDIT: OLP is NOT like Gibson's Epihone or Fender's Squier or GnL's Tribute, despite the myth, perpetuated by "the usual suspects" that OLP is, in any way, the 'Squier' element of the EB MM line. Sometimes this myth takes on too much of a life of its own and I feel moved occasionally to kick it [the myth, not OLP] in the teeth. It's not my job to uphold EB MM's image [they do that themselves perfectly well]. But I have a limited appetite for dumbastedness, so I [somewhat rudely] presented the naked facts.

 

[BigBallz]

um....hmmm...ahh.....I like my new Bongo.

 

[bassmonkeee]

Yes I've read it before, had not forgotten it, and it's cool that these guys are friends, and no I don't feel silly. And thanks for posting the crosslink so others can check that out. However, the two products lines, EBMM and OLP, are totally unrelated.

So, how exactly is a product line that is the brain child of the head of Ernie Ball, and fully licensed and authorized, totally unrelated in any way to EBMM?

And this

"This is not an EB MM product and is not in anyway releated to EB MM, but we thought it would sell better if it looked like one, so it looks like one. Our lawyers warned us that appearances and visual identity of EB MM products may possibly be the intelectual property of EB MM, so we made an arrangement to acquire permission to use that appearance on our stuff."

How is that not just 100% wrong? They made arrangements to acquire permission after the fact from the guy whose idea it was in the first place to avoid being sued?

For a post written in such a condescending manner, it certainly doesn't make a whole lot of sense....

 

[Figjam]

Im also confused. I think OLP is quite related to EBMM. What defines 'related' for you? Of course they are not made in the same factory, thats the point. What other connection are they lacking?

 

[Psycho Ward]

Well on the topic of short scale basses, I've got one and I love it!

Is it my main bass, no, just something that is fun to play every now and then. I like the lower tension and what that sounds like.

But when I go out to play I grab a Ball.

 

[BigBallz]

Well on the topic of short scale basses, I've got one and I love it!

Is it my main bass, no, just something that is fun to play every now and then. I like the lower tension and what that sounds like.

But when I go out to play I grab a Ball.

I grab two balls now.