Question Please, need your opinion on L3 tech aspect and warranty service

[Rbg]

So, I am an owner of the 2022 L3 BFR for almost a year now. Here is the NGD thread. NGD: Time to show my new LIII BFR
Overall love it, also it makes me very happy to just look at the guitar esthetically. However, the instrument from out of the box had a very "stiff" neck in terms of relief. With 9th strings and standard tuning neck relief measures 0.2-0.25mm (0.009") with the truss rot completely loose. So I play the guitar with the nut just barely tighten to prevent it from spinning. I got the instrument from @PeteDuBaldo and had a discussion with him and EBMM CS (with all potential fixes, for example: "bending" the neck a bit to make sure the rod is not stuck ). Of course they are very responsive and helpful. We agreed that it is a border line acceptable and EBMM people (I of course know the names, just don't want to mention here without their permission) suggested me to keep an eye on it before the warranty runs out. So, I am at the end of my warranty period and need to decide if I should send back the guitar for them to evaluate it and potentially replace the neck. My dilemma here:
1. (Keep) I absolutely love the grain and color of the neck and how it matches the guitar. If they replace it this may change.
2. (Keep) Shipping across the country is difficult and scary.
3. (Send) Sometime I feel limitations in adjustability. Especially when changing strings or change of season. It plays totally fine by itself, but when comparing to the L2 where I can play more with the relief I eellike. I can set the guitars a tad better.
4. (Send) Fear that it will get worse with time and the neck will become completely flat or even convex with the time.

I know that it is ultimately my decision to make, but I would really like to hear your opinion on wether I should send it to MM or not? @PeteDuBaldo what do you think as a person who've seen many guitars including this one?

Thank you!

 

[DrKev]

My Silhouette Special is similar to your LIII - truss rod all the way loose, and I get 0.2 mm to 0.25mm (0.008" to 0.010") absolute max. I will never get any more relief from this neck without going up in string gauge. It worried me. But that is acceptable neck relief for a large majority of players. And the guitar is now 17 years old. It's very stable. In fact short term or long term, it rarely changes at all. It's a very stable neck, maybe *because* it's so "stiff". (Doesn't seem like an unreasonable guess.)

I totally understand how anxiety-inducing this can be. The cost of a new neck out of warranty will make anyone's head spin! How do I know? I got a new neck for my Cutlass. Its original neck had the opposite issue - truss rod so tight I was bending tools but I was getting frequent large changes in relief. After three years I was out of warranty but it was clearly not getting better than it was in the first year and I had enough. So I emptied my piggy bank. Ouch. I have a great new neck though.

The good news is that I don't think your guitar will behave differently to what it does now. The wood was very well dried and seasoned before production and if there were no major changes in behavior since production it's probably settled for good now. Seasonal changes will always be there and that's fine. But if you've had no problems correcting that to date, I don't think you will in the future.

Overall, I completely understand the anxiety but I also think you're safe just moving on and keeping the neck grain you love so much. To address your four points...

1) Yes the neck grain WILL change, but you may still love the result.
2) It's only scary the first time. If you have the original case and box and ship it tracked and insured, you'll be fine.
3) If you're truly not happy with the setup, then send the guitar in. There is no stock of necks lying around 'just in case', so it will be a unique one-off work order to be fit into the existing production schedule. It's not something they'll do without a clear fault to be corrected in the first place and I'm not sure this qualifies. If it's "just" anxiety then...
4) I really don't think it will get worse. It may even get better! Yes, it's not my guitar or risk so its easy for me to say, but I really think you're safe keeping it as is.

 

[Adder]

So, arent these truss rods 2 way? I would have thought they would be.

 

[Rbg]

No, EBMM uses single action rods.

 

[kimonostereo]

If you plan on keeping the guitar, send it in and get it fixed. I had a Luke II where the high E string would fall off of the fretboard because the fret ends were over dressed a tad. I loved the guitar but never played it because of that issue. I thought it was all in my head, but once I sent it in, they confirmed the issue and they fixed it.

 

[Rbg]

It’s not something they'll do without a clear fault to be corrected in the first place and I'm not sure this qualifies. If it's "just" anxiety then...

If you plan on keeping the guitar, send it in and get it fixed. …they confirmed the issue and they fixed it.

Does this mean that there is a chance they conclude that everything is ok with the neck and two shippings (~$200) will be on me? That’s something to take into consideration as well, I guess.

 

[DrKev]

Does this mean that there is a chance they conclude that everything is ok with the neck and two shippings (~$200) will be on me? That’s something to take into consideration as well, I guess.

That was my impression in my situation. It may or may not apply to but you should have that clarified before you make any decision.

 

[PeteDuBaldo]

I would recommend sending it to EBMM so they can check it out before warranty expires. The truss should not be maxed out in either direction. There may be ways (not necessarily easy ways) for them to correct it without replacing the neck, but they would have to get hands-on with it first.

You have an awesome guitar, let's make sure it's 100%

 

[Rbg]

Thank you!

 

[Luks]

My Silhouette Special is similar to your LIII - truss rod all the way loose, and I get 0.2 mm to 0.25mm (0.008" to 0.010") absolute max. I will never get any more relief from this neck without going up in string gauge. It worried me. But that is acceptable neck relief for a large majority of players. And the guitar is now 17 years old. It's very stable. In fact short term or long term, it rarely changes at all. It's a very stable neck, maybe *because* it's so "stiff". (Doesn't seem like an unreasonable guess.)

I totally understand how anxiety-inducing this can be. The cost of a new neck out of warranty will make anyone's head spin! How do I know? I got a new neck for my Cutlass. Its original neck had the opposite issue - truss rod so tight I was bending tools but I was getting frequent large changes in relief. After three years I was out of warranty but it was clearly not getting better than it was in the first year and I had enough. So I emptied my piggy bank. Ouch. I have a great new neck though.

The good news is that I don't think your guitar will behave differently to what it does now. The wood was very well dried and seasoned before production and if there were no major changes in behavior since production it's probably settled for good now. Seasonal changes will always be there and that's fine. But if you've had no problems correcting that to date, I don't think you will in the future.

Overall, I completely understand the anxiety but I also think you're safe just moving on and keeping the neck grain you love so much. To address your four points...

1) Yes the neck grain WILL change, but you may still love the result.
2) It's only scary the first time. If you have the original case and box and ship it tracked and insured, you'll be fine.
3) If you're truly not happy with the setup, then send the guitar in. There is no stock of necks lying around 'just in case', so it will be a unique one-off work order to be fit into the existing production schedule. It's not something they'll do without a clear fault to be corrected in the first place and I'm not sure this qualifies. If it's "just" anxiety then...
4) I really don't think it will get worse. It may even get better! Yes, it's not my guitar or risk so its easy for me to say, but I really think you're safe keeping it as is.

Hi @DrKev ! I reply to this because I always find really interesting comments from you. My Majesty works the same way. Setting the trem completely flat and flush with the body, and the saddles almost low, the truss rod is at the and of it’s range (almost loose) but there’s no fret buzz and the 6th string is at 1.75 mm and the 1st at 1.25. My luthier told me that the majesty it’s made to work almost flat, and of course, having a single action rod don’t allow me to get a lot of relief because the tension of the strings is the only thing that gives me some relief. If I turn the wheel clockwise (a turn maybe) I will have a backbow. My luthier said this guitar is perfect and the way it sounds with really low action it’s almost impossible for another guitar. Last thing he said is that the neck is really stiff and stable so that’s the reason why I don’t need to adjust the wheel clockwise, so it’s all good. If I take off all the strings it is not possible to set the neck 100% flat/straight, but putting the strings (010) the guitar set ups automatically, so it’s all calculated by the EBMM guys.

 

[Rbg]

You have to keep one thing in mind, if you can not get a neck straight/flat without string pull your luthier will not be very happy if you ever need a refret. It is not a problem a guitars with SS frets, but maybe be one ones with NS frets.

As it is a reply to my post... EBMM did replace my neck under warranty just to be on a safe side.

A fun fact I found from watching various interviews with Paul from PRS and John from Suhr: Paul claims that a truss rod needs to be as loose as possible as any wood compression kills the tone. While John claims that if a rod is loose it rattles (no matter how little) and dampens the vibrations and kills the tone. So go figure

 

[Luks]

You have to keep one thing in mind, if you can not get a neck straight/flat without string pull your luthier will not be very happy if you ever need a refret. It is not a problem a guitars with SS frets, but maybe be one ones with NS frets.

As it is a reply to my post... EBMM did replace my neck under warranty just to be on a safe side.

A fun fact I found from watching various interviews with Paul from PRS and John from Suhr: Paul claims that a truss rod needs to be as loose as possible as any wood compression kills the tone. While John claims that if a rod is loose it rattles (no matter how little) and dampens the vibrations and kills the tone. So go figure

Hi @Rbg ! Yes. My luthier told me the same thing, but he thinks it is made intentionally and it must be done with a pleck machine and other expensive stuff lol. Do you think it shouldn’t be like that? The majesty comes with SS frets. And about your neck: Is the new one different than the other one? (Asking about truss rod adjustment position).

 

[fbecir]

I love my 4 Music Man and I never had problem adjusting them (but France has a temperate climate, thus it's easier), but I don't understand why brands like Music Man do not use the Vigier technique :

Contrary to popular belief, the neck is truly where the tone of your instrument comes from. The 90/10™ system, exclusive to Vigier, consists of a wood neck reinforced with a carbon slab – the ratio between the two is 90% maple and 10% carbon fiber. A normal wood neck is too flexible, resulting in the strings losing energy when played, reducing both the sustain and impact of the note. The 90/10™ system alleviates this problem. Additionally, the carbon prevents the neck from deforming due to climate or a change in string gauge or tuning. Normally, this is why a truss rod is used, but with the 90/10™, there is no need for one.

(taken from We Make The Difference – Vigier Guitars)

Vigier's necks are fabulous but I never bonded with the rest of the guitar thus I never bought one.
(by the way, Patrice Vigier is now retired and the brand will cease all activities)

 

[Vito Porkleone]

Personally, I think I'd keep it.

I still have my first guitar that I bought in '82. I quit playing for a long time, and that guitar went in and out of storage units, moving company warehouses, you name it - most of that time unstrung. So 4 years ago, I decided to refurb it and put it back to original condition, and discovered the neck had a huge backbow. After long thought and much consternation, I put 10's on it and tuned to F#, and I let it hang from a wall hook for about 6 months. Restrung it with my usual 9's, and it now has just the right amount of relief with the truss rod engaged.

Now would I do that with an LIII? Maybe not to that extreme, but putting 10's on it for a little while wouldn't hurt anything - and might be all you need.